Three weeks have passed since the introduction of the 6.83 changes into Dota 2 and it is time for another pub tier list, in which we will discuss what heroes and why are stronger or weaker than they were in 6.82.
To be perfectly fair, most of the changes did not impact the hero standings - the 6.82c patch was a well-balanced patch focused around mid-late game and not a lot has changed - the game is still very much farm based with a strong comeback potential and certain mechanics which prevent mindless pushing strategies from being as effective as they were last summer.
That said, there were a lot of smaller changes, which, while looking unimpressive on paper, did influence the Win Rate on certain heroes by a rather large amount.
Without further ado, Pub Tier List 6.83:
Omniknight, Abaddon, Necrophos
These three heroes have been in the Pub Stompers section for quite a while now and the general reasoning behind the very impressive Win Rate on the first two has not changed a lot - both Omniknight and Abaddon are extremely hard to kill themselves and they also provide a lot of saves for their teammates.
To be honest, we were expecting a bigger impact of the Diffusal Blade not being an Unique Attack Modifier on the Omniknight's Win Rate. But as it stands, there was only around 0.5% decrease in it, which is not at all representative of anything.
Necrophos, while sounding very similar on paper, is in fact very different from the first two heroes. The biggest difference is that Necrophos is primarily a carry. Not necessarily your typical auto-attacking type, but a carry nonetheless. He can be played in the support role, but he only has one disable at his disposal - his ultimate with a really long cooldown and his healing capabilities are not at all impressive. If your team needs a support to finish up your lineup, there are better alternatives.
Without items the hero can be bursted very quickly, especially considering miniscule range on the Death Pulse and extremely slow projectiles, which will force the hero to be in the middle of the action, where any half-decent opponents will try to focus him.
Given at least some farm, however, the hero transforms into a very potent ganker/tank/damage dealer who can punish a single mistake from an opponent extremely hard - having no buyback past 45 minutes mark on your carry can lose you the game.
Given the high Win Rate, the heroes are also quite popular. In general, any hero that relies on healing and/or regeneration can be easily countered with Ancient Apparition, and these three heroes are not an exception.
According to the "matchups" tab on both Abaddon and Omniknight, Razor is also a good counter to both - he is extremely hard to burst down due to high Strength gain and mobility, while the tides of battle slowly turn in his favor the longer it lasts. At some point the heals will get irrelevant and Guardian Angel will wear off.
Interestingly, Sniper and Drow Ranger are also among the best matchups against all three heroes in the Pub Stompers section. It could be the superior range and high damage output what makes these generally sub-optimal heroes effective against them.
Given the random nature of the lower brackets which are included in the sample I would personally avoid drawing conclusions regarding the Sniper - the hero is really popular among newer players and to be perfectly fair it is a lot easier to play a semi-decent Sniper, than a semi-decent Omniknight.
Drow Ranger, however, has a really strong silence at her disposal, which might contribute to her matchup statistics and from what I have personally witnessed the skill is often overlooked even in my ~4.5k bracket.
Wraith King, Juggernaut, Crystal Maiden, Zeus, Spectre, Silencer, Centaur Warrunner, Troll Warlord, Warlock, Lich, Vengeful Spirit, Undying, Riki, Earthshaker, Spirit Breaker, Medusa, Slardar, Ogre Magi, Witch Doctor
Juggernaut: my initial expectation of the +6 Agility buff was much lower, than it turned out to be in practice. To be fair, while the laning stage got a lot easier, I personally have never experienced problems farming as Juggernaut, and assumed that this buff will have the most impact in terms of +1 armor derived from the said Agility buff.
And that is where I was very wrong - the hero experienced an almost 4% increase in Win Rate in the transition, and given he already had a rather high one, it can be considered a rather impressive bump. Top that with an increased popularity of the hero among pro players hence a multitude of new interesting builds and VODs and you get a really strong, well-rounded carry with a decent potential from excellent crits, amazing healing ward and 1.4 BAT.
Crystal Maiden: a 2.6% increase in Win Rate solely from an increased utility of her ultimate, which can be channeled from half-a-screen away and still do its dirty job. Crystal Maiden suddenly became a lot more relevant, though not quite to a point where she is consistently picked in the competitive scene.
The weird part about the hero, in my opinion, is her ability to jungle starting at level 1 and her crazy amount of soft crowd control that would have transitioned into a terribly overpowered aggressive support, if it wasn't for her ridiculous movement speed and early-game mana issues. The way she is now, she is a bit awkward to play - you never know what skills to get and in what order - they are all excellent in a very underwhelming body (statswise).
Troll Warlord: one of the most impressive Win Rate changes in the 6.82c - 6.83 transition - 3.89%. It was a collaborative effort of bug fixes and max AS cap increase. Since Troll Warlord had no issues reaching that 500 IAS previously, the latter is a huge buff. And extra +34 AS on first hit with Fervor is certainly not minuscule by any means.
Dazzle, Treant Protector, Venomancer, Luna, Axe, Ursa, Mirana, Sniper, Slark, Chaos Knight, Clockwerk, Disruptor, Viper, Tidehunter, Enigma, Phoenix, Phantom Assassin, Jakiro, Faceless Void, Drow Ranger, Shadow Fiend, Night Stalker, Brewmaster, Shadow Shaman, Pudge, Ancient Apparition, Bloodseeker, Lion
Chaos Knight: a major increase in Win Rate from some really strong early game buffs. it seems it is the time to wipe the dust off all the Io players, since the combo has never been this potent since the huge Wisp nerfs post TI3.
It is often said that Chaos Knight is among the strongest late-game carries - after all his damage output scales extremely well with levels and items. It might not necessarily be the case, since all of the illusion-based heroes have received a nerf, but if you see a lineup that has very little AoE or no natural Mjollnir carriers, the hero can be extremely strong.
Tidehunter: one of the big losers in this patch and another case where I was wrong - 5 MS and 70 Damage do matter.
To be fair, since Refresher Orb is such a common item on the hero, he has essentially lost 140 damage on his ultimate, which can mean all the difference between a support with crucial disable on the opposite team dying or surviving. At the same time, his scary presence is persistent and his ability to crowd control in a huge AoE is not a single bit less potent.
Jakiro: the pushing capabilities of this hero came not only from the damage he could deal to the towers, but also from the AS decrease it provided, making your wave survive a lot longer. With the damage aspect heavily nerfed, the hero got a lot less potent in taking T1 towers, where he could essentially dive for 1 tower hit to get the debuff on it. That resulted in an almost 2% Win Rate decrease.
This change was primarily focused on the competitive scene, where the hero has been prioritized for quite a while now. Since he is still one of the heroes that are rather difficult to play, his Pub Win Rate is in no way representative of his actual strength in capable hands. Yes, he is a weaker pusher now, but there is a lot of other utility the hero can provide, given proper setup and skill.
Elder Titan, Phantom Lancer, Keeper of the Light, Bristleback, Leshrac, Tiny, Techies, Sand King, Dark Seer, Lina, Weaver, Razor, Beastmaster, Gyrocopter, Lycan, Windranger, Death Prophet, Storm Spirit, Meepo, Dragon Knight
Techies: Techies is a very peculiar hero - he is both extremely over- and underpowered. After a very strong nerf to his Stasis Trap, there was a compensation due and it came in a form of increased damage on Land Mine. A very significant damage increase of 75 at level 1.
This resulted in a Win Rate increase of almost 3%, which couldn't go unnoticed, since, personally, I was a big fan of the hero when he was played in the competitive setups back in Dota 1.
It is really hard to tell whether the hero belongs to the category of heroes that are hard or easy to play, but one thing is almost certain - public matchmaking players are not in any way representative of the potential of the hero.
Death Prophet: not long ago the hero was featured in our pub stompers section and look where she is now. Patch after patch the hero was hit with nerf hammer, much akin to Lina, which gets buffed patch after patch.
Was the nerf deserved, given her current abysmal Win Rate of 46.53%?. I really feel like it was, since the hero was and still is quite strong in the competitive scene and higher level public matchmaking. You just have to care about the positioning a lot more that you previously had to.
Razor: For some reason, even without the nerfs, the hero has lost slightly over 1% Win Rate. No direct counters to the hero have received significant buffs, so it must be the case of people adjusting and learning to play against the hero, rather than patch effect.
Elder Titan: a very minor damage nerf on Ancestral Spirit and various bug fixes have resulted in a surprising drop of slightly over 2%. Given that the majority of players did not utilize many of the bugs that have been used by the pros and the bugs themselves were not terribly overpowered, there is almost no reason for this change.
Interestingly, the "matchup" tab for the hero features Techies as the biggest nemesis of Elder Titan, but even given a significant buff on Techies it is still really hard to link these two pieces of information.
Huskar, Nyx Assassin, Queen of Pain, Timbersaw, Kunkka, Templar Assassin, Doom, Pugna, Skywrath Mage, Batrider, Lifestealer, Magnus, Anti-Mage, Bane, [missing hero: outworld-devourer], Naga Siren, Invoker, Legion Commander, Clinkz, Terrorblade, Tusk, Rubick, Morphling, Ember Spirit, Visage, Earth Spirit, Oracle, Enchantress, Tinker, Broodmother, Puck, Nature's Prophet
Queen of Pain: one of the most discussed heroes on reddit has finally been given a buff which was not completely out of place. It resulted in a decent Win Rate gain of 2.67%, compared to 6.82c. The Win Rate is not at all impressive, but the hero has gained a lot of utility and became a lot better against certain heroes, such as Anti-Mage, Meepo, Rubick and especially Visage.
She can also neglect the effects of Pipe of Insight, which in most sitauations rendered the hero almost completely useless.
Oracle: people are playing the hero wrong. Completely wrong. The fact that Dagon is even featured on the hero page makes me want to cringe heavily.
Oracle is a support hero. A hard support hero with a really strong early game burst and a decent amount of really strong disables. The pure fact that he can render an enemy carry useless and make him take 50% increased physical and pure damage should be enough to make him viable. Add to it the ability to make your carry an unstoppable force for 9 seconds and a very strong purge which actually holds the targets in place and you get a terribly overpowered hero, which suffers from the inability of public matchmaking players to process information in a proper manner.
His 1.4 BAT is also terribly imbalanced. Get to a lane with a decent amount of regeneration items and you can harass pretty much everyone out of it - for each of their hits, you can put out two (not exactly, but you get the idea). It is not there to make you a carry, it is there for you to make your lane partner a carry. A terribly overfarmed safelaning carry.
Shadow Demon, Alchemist, Chen, Io, Lone Druid
Chen: I have a friend who is consistently featured in the Top 100 for Chen. When we were discussing the changes to the hero in 6.83 he said that the hero is now terribly overpowered, since having 2 creeps at level 3 can make a lot of difference. For one, you will farm a lot faster - you can even stack one camp with one of your creeps to be later taken with Wildkin, while you farm the other camps with your second creep.
You can gank more effectively - stun+slow is a really strong combination. You can singlehandedly win Mid Lane for your partner with a harpy, while you effectively jungle. The implications of these changes are a lot bigger than people unfamiliar with hero assume.
And the +15% HP on Granite Golem is a must in later stages of the game.
Alchemist: I really do not know why this hero is so low in Win Rate. He might not be the strongest of carries, but given there is no Ancient Apparition on the enemy team he can be rather hard to deal with.
Add to it the fact that you can effectively build him to hit six times in a second by a 30 minute mark and you get a ravaging monster on your hands.
Seriously, though, the hero does require some sort of a buff and it has to be not to the gold gains from Goblins Greed, which is rather irrelevant in the current patch.
I... don't... know...
buff am pls
I think a decent MS buff on the +MS from chemical rage, like 20/30 per level (50/75/100 vs (20/40/60) would go a long way - his main problem is sticking on targets, and that'd help a lot
The problem with alchemist is that people dont build armour or hp, coupled with a stun or slow, alch is so easily kited and bursted down. Any carry with a brain will just walk away from him or bash him.
Has anyone noticed that the win rate top 5 heroes all have strong healing skills?
@SonicMisora: Not surprising in the slightest. In pubs, there are few things better for a teamfight than a way to keep your allies alive. Also, if the Support has enough mana restoration, they can allow the Carry they're babysitting to stay in lane a very long time, despite any harassment.
It reminds me of how the designers of League of Legends have stated that making a healing-focused Champion, Soraka, was a huge mistake, since it's so difficult to balance. Healing spells by themselves are fine, but if a character is based around them, then either their allies can stay alive too long or the healing is too weak to affect the outcome of a match. Given that Omniknight is the closest thing this game has to a White Mage, this fear is probably correct.
gj nice article
PS: fuck reddit
lifestealer is not throwing hero :D
sorry can i give the suggestion for kawaishocks
can u differentiate it , i mean
win rate in 2 section , 1 section is for very high skill bracket , and 1 section is for very high skill bracket n below (high skill, normall skill etc)
coz that win rate in this article is overall win rate of all bracket right
its the reason why ferrari have very high win rate on his akasha at very high skill mmr bracket
but in other article akasha only have 43% win rate , especially with his almighty 1300 blink n super pure damage sonic wave
i know why Alchemist have low win rate
his HP very low and his armor very low , its combo wombo to die instantly in fight
a lot of Alchemist player didnt notice that , n keep buying aspd n damage item
if he can deal damage , he will deal super mega ton of damage , but , if he got attacked he can die really fast
plus , enemy 100% will not let Alchemist free farm
seriously.. alchemist is OP. i think people might be playing him the wrong way. basing from the popular build tab and from my own experience, sacrificing levels from acid spray or unstable concoction for early levels of greevils greed could possibly mean a losing early game for your team and a 50-50 for mid to late game. on the other hand, giving levels to your first two skills could just provide your team with some strong (but not always reliable) ganking potential early-mid game. you could always give the jungle a late visit when you finally have some later levels of greed and lanes pushed outward IMO.
but lone druid? what is the matter with him?
Furion, this is an opinion piece. Don't be so furious to find out you disagree with it.
The picture still has boner king on it D:
I think the problem with lone druid is the fact that mobile agi carries are big right now. Slark, one of the best counters to ld, is super popular right now and not nearly as hard to play well. Also the nerf to tower kill gold hurt a lot. LD is good when he can fight someone trying to man up or people who suck at running away.
EDIT: also slows wreck him and PA and Brew are popular too now.
my only problem with icefrog is that he doesn't give 2 shit about pub players,which is literally 99.99% of the player base
The thinking is that pub players can simply improve so that they can play Heroes as the way they are meant to be played. This is probably for the best, since it's impossible to balance characters on both low-skill and high-skill environments, so this lets Icefrog focus on one area. Of course, it says something that when Omniknight, who had a 62% pub winrate at the time, recently had his Ult nerfed, people were actually surprised.
I cannot find bounty hunter on this list
Stop saying that BS about oracle ("support, bluh bluh bluh"). We all k ow it's wrong. And the very fact that you keep saying "this or that item is wrong", as a person who is supposed to deliver unbiased analysis, is already facepalm worthy.
Oracle does NOT have the package to be a semi-carry mid. She has terrible mobility, low agi-growth, can't initiate without telegraphing a 2.5s channel, and has no teamfight. Yes, she can nuke a hero down but it's really not enough. If you want to do what people want Oracle to do, then pick Nyx and get your Dagon. (Also, have you actually tried nuking a hero and timing the purge? You have to follow up with right clicks most of the time, and you can't channel Q for long or else your target heals from your nuke. It's almost as awkward as following up on Alch's stun.)
She does an ultimate that is essentially a better Shallow Grave + Aphotic Shield. I would say it's her ulti alone that makes her a better support than semi-carry. There may be a time for Oracle carry, but it's not now.
p.s. btw I forget Oracle is male
@eggs: To be perfectly fair, Oracle has a pretty female portrait and looks like that blue councilwoman from Lilio and Stitch. He looks far more masculine in that Phantom Assassin contract comic.
It's pretty simple to use Fortune's End and Purifying Flames together: just use the latter to cancel the channel. Still, you can't be too close, or it won't work.
When I first heard of False Promise, I actually thought, "Hey! That's sounds like Kunkka's Ghostship".
Oracle is so in a weird meta right now, where no one can really understand where he goes. I mean his ult is good for heals, so why don't you build heals on the hero? No one really gets it, and I wish they would. I agree that a support Oracle played right can decimate anybody and everybody.
sniper 3 mael/mjolh .
Heals are OP in pubs, because people don't know how to deal with them. That's not representative of the heroes being OP though.
As for Oracle, I've seen support Oracle done right. It's terrifying.
again lone druid at the bottom..what is wrong with that hero i really want my fav hero to be somewhat good but that seems it's gonna take a long time
P.S. and what's the matter with SD?skill cap too high maybe?the hero seems perfectly fine and viable even in a mid role in my opinion
Necro isn't a Carry idiot.
He's a core.
Theres a different between a core and a carry jesus christ. Timbersaw is a core, but he is by no means a Carry. Same goes for necro.
Exactly. Some people just can't understand that there are more roles in DOTA than just carry and support.
There are 5 main roles, in order of farm priority:
1. Hard Carry
4. Core Support
5. Hard Support
Heroes fit into any of these roles based on the current meta and how people play them.
Where's Sven in this line up?
honestly i wonder how many buffs necro is gonna get before icefrog nerfs him. he's pretty absurd in pubs considering his ulti with aghs(and refresher if you can farm it up) is pretty much game changing.
As an Oracle player that currently has over 70& winrate on him(currently 30 games) on 4.8k mmr. He suits well as a support. His ulti is like 3 in 1 spells( Abaddon shield, Shallow grave and Slark old ulti). I've seen people making him as a position 1 carry by making Skadi phase boots etc and it works. Soul ring is a really underrated item for Oracle. I always make it. Fate's edict is a fast way to kill roshan and disable enemy carries while amplify them physical and pure damage. This hero suitable for experienced players that is familliar with the game mechanics and heroes damage because you need to know when to use your fate's edict at your friends and foe. This hero really needs cooperation from your team.
Sorry for my english. English is not my native language.
There are a few reasons for Lone Druid to be on the crap tier.
1) Hard to pilot, big punishment: Yes, piloting two different units permanently is kindda nasty. And it's different from, let's say, Lycan. If you forget your wolves or just move them in the same unit group, whatever, it works. When playing LD you must often advance and attack with bear while keep your hero at safe distance.
2) No disable, no stun, no nothing... they walk and hit and that's all.
3) It's to be punished for mistakes. a Dying bear provides 300 gold, a not very wel farmed LD is really useless in the team and you must really know how to farm and contribute without falling behind.
4) It is actually weak. AdmiralBulldog said so, his counters have been buffed and overall there are plenty of other better carry options for all purposes.
That's the problem with Lone Druid - most of his counters have been buffed so much that it's so difficult to win with him right now. Plus everyone goes for midas on him which isn't always the best option.
People are just SO GOD DAMN NOOB
they cant diffuse repel. That's why they goddamn lose against omni.
Long time LD player here. I think the hero is fine, but misunderstood by pub players.
People either go jungle (being generally useless) or offlane carelessly which results in feeding. With sylla you need to WIN your lane via constant harass and roots lvl5 on. You need a lot experience with this hero to win 1v2 lanes and know how do bear pulls in a vs trilane scenario.
Im mid nuker oracle with dagon
And my win percentage is 67% with oracle
Yeah i know that im just in 3,2k mmr match but if u say this is about support oracle in pub, i think support oracle is the answer why oracle get low win percentage in pub because u all neglect his nuker ability
Is this an ok oracle item build? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1039813802
overall its ok item build RRR , since u success to make ur teammate carry farm well
but i think u miss mekans , mekans at oracle is like 500++ heal with ult
plus buff ur low armor support , n buff team for +2 armor
plus tell ur razor friend to buy refresher later -> double ult aghanim is insane , try it in custom game if u dont believe
its very good for burst damage , and burst armor reduction , enemy will loose his armor really fast
and if someone on ur team love to buy deso , as a support u recommended to buy medalion
medalion + deso = around -14 minus armor , its insane
"Necro isn't a carry idiot, he's a core"
Nice name calling over such an insanely minor issue.
And yes nuker Oracle can work, but your dagon oracle build will only work in your 3.2k mmr. In higher MMRs there are so many different ways of getting around it, not to mention you will basically lose against any competent mid player.
.-. .-. .-. .-. .-.
No words on Brood? sure not many buffs or nerfs recently (the vision nerf isn't really worth talking about) but she is still a solid hero! yeah, u can easily use sentry wards but you are still faster than the majority of opponents, especially if you go tranquils. later you can get items that will often send her out of control especially if u use spider swarms to go jungle - when they die at least a hero wont get gold, and in numbers they can kill a LOT of things. Her lifesteal ulti can keep you alive while an enemy goes down faster: combined with her E most people will CRY especially right clickers.
DOta 2 needs pit lord so badly.
Doom and lc, lc especially, need to get the passive disable put back on their no ags ults to stop the relentless onslaught of right clickers every game.
Heroes such as jugg and pa are so successful because there is no way to counter their right click dog output once they have bkb to stop blade mail damage. An ability such as pre nerf duel which could disable critical was a necessity to keep the game balanced. Hopefully we'll see some change to the meta to get rid of the 4 carry 1 hard support line up in every pub game (4k)
@mcdisco I remember a simpler time of stomping br's and Russians in dota 1 with brood mid
And even with the increase in win % on troll (I have an 80% winrate for ranked) I don't really see his popularity increasing that much or the winrate staying where it is. A majority of pub players don't understand how to play troll and instead try to play him like they would PA or AM or some other carry, and also don't take advantage of his great utility to create kills for other heroes such as slark who can benefit greatly from the attack speed burst.
I really do In my opinion, Omniknight is way too overpowered.
His 1st skill is way too spammable when you have a Soul Ring. It gives your team a 360 heal and damage with an amazing low cooldown.
His 2nd skill basically is a 8-second BKB that has a cooldown of 14 seconds. Yes, Diffusal Blade purges it, but is it worth to still have it lategame considering the charges and the item slots?
His 3rd skill is basically a better version of the Eye of Skadi. Eye of Skadi gives a 36% movement slow while Omniknight's 3rd skill gives a 34% movement slow in an area around him.
His ultimate basically makes your team immune to physical attacks.
Please nerf Omniknight and please buff Tinker and Death Prophet a little.
Lone Druids tend to farm all game and not help, and are incredibly predictable in that they'll be farming jungle all game.
Necrophos is often played as a position 1, the so nominated "carry". Getting him farm priority makes him the carry in a way since you are using resources so that he can carry the team later on. And a very farmed and well played necro can be more scary than a "regular" carry like AM or void. Or at least he will make you wait a week before you can play again. Despite not being that usual, necrophos can and is a good position 1, the game that comes to mind is Kuroky on secret, with n0tail's wisp backing him up (now N0Tail is out T_T).
As for the pub losers section, i feel kinda bad for some really strong heroes to be in that section. Maybe due to the fact that they can be somewhat countered in pubs or are tricky to play, as it was mentioned with Elder Titan. It is also kinda unnatural to see heroes with high winrate and popularity in the pro scene in the section of pub throwers (like batrider or doom), but it is almost common knowledge that the average pub will never be compared to pro, no matter how strong or common the heroes are in the pro scene.
All in all, i've enjoyed the last few patches. Afterall, icefrog knows what he does.
Abaddon is always a pub stomper since the beginning of his existence. lol
THANK YOU! Couldn't agree more with the Oracle points. He was one of my main heroes in DotA 1 and people literally have no idea what they are doing on that hero now...I guess he has to be in the category of, "disgustingly overpowered if you know how to play him" along with Kaolin i suppose.
Oracle ulti is kinda bullshit, can spam every 20 sec. Free invis, works like shallow grave and will wreck uncoordinated pub bcus no one bother to buy detection. Need to tone a down a bit.
Alchemist is not a Repick hero!! Maybe it is just me, but I random all the time, and every time I get alchemist, I become so happy to have a hero who can farm for 15 minutes and then become unstoppable (literally). Once it hits level 6, the HP regen is just crazy. Easy farming with ult, extra gold with greevil's greed and midas, and you have a Mjollnir at 15 minutes!! A BKB is all you need after that to make the towers look paper.
Agreeing to the fact that if not farmed properly for 1st 5 minutes may actually result in a lot of feed and ultimately a loss to the team, but definitely not a repick hero.
Where is Bounty Hunter? BibleThump