General DiscussionThe most toxic teammate i had so far

hello my name is common sense and my question is why isn't your voice sound at 0% and all chat muted

4k hd, and 1k!! td with jakiro talkin about useless in a 45min game!!! im speechless...

looks like an average match in SEA.
except that the flaming persons skill level is way below an average pinoy

K.

k.

well enemy had 2 retards on team too if i am not mistaken =)

Ok. Ok. Ok.

That part

"jungle luna", stopped there

"jungle luna", stopped there

jungle luna

Jungle Luna. Wow, TBH any jungle is bad these days. Don't tell me how your 'jungle tactic' gets your x amount of gold in little time. What these noob job junglers fail to understand is that the other teams lane can and often will go uncontested.

He probably had lots of noob junglers on his team in recent games.

If someone marks woods I type "if u jungle I go techies" no bluff

Stopped there

rofl, luna is a good jungler actually, mb in my top 3, just jungling sucks in these patches
I remember having 100 cs 10 min 290 - 20 min and like 70% winrate with her in jungle at some point
rest of the thread i didnt read, too long, sry

Speechless yet writes a freakin novel to tell ppl on the Internet how someone in his last game made him cry

She can actually jungle good, if you cant lane, at least you won

Jungling Luna while doable if nobody pays attention to her, it's still very dangerous, weakens lanes and takes a while to come online. Sure if youve got a line up for it you can get away with being greedy but most people won't pick heroes who this strategy works for. You can't risk tilting your team mates like this. It annoys me too how people are so entrenched in the meta then say league has a static meta which yeah it does but dota isn't that much better in what people will flame you for trying out. Playing BH support or Lina mid would have been flamed two/three years ago.

You made the Jakiro support solo, which is something to be honest I just can't stand doing anymore and don't play in consequence but solo support I think making people saltier and saltier and he probably had enough of it. If you want to jungle, use Enigma or Chen. Anybody else is significantly worse off according to stats. Still I understand why you don't want to use a support jungler so in that case just don't jungle at all...

Also yet another game where both teams had 4 or more cores... Honest to god...

stoped reading after jungle luna

ok here are my thoughts on jungling:

i can play luna on safe lane too with the same farm and bind 1-2 more heroes from our team to support me, so that these 1-2 heroes pull the lane, buy wards, zoning the offlaner etc..

on the other side i can play luna in jungle with the same farm (see the jungler as ur carry later..) and safelane is open for 1-2 supports or 1 offlane hero and support i dont care. so u got 1 more farmed on ur team in midgame. how is this bad?

when i play support i never complain when im solo support. i mean whats the problem? wards for 65? courir for 100, 150?

i know jungling will be punished in competitive 5vs5 teamgames. but this are solo games and none cares for jungler for the first 10 mins usually..

But when pros do it... the copycats will be unleashed :D

"jungle", stopped there

everyone has bad games

The problem is your team doesn't end up more farmed. This is the biggest misconception people make when jungling.

The jungler themselves may not get punished at lower levels but the enemy safe laner will get FAR more resources then they would if they had 2 people up there or the enemy mid laner might get compromised if the second support ganks, especially with the first, there's a lot more pressure on the map and that adds up to networth and more accurately, it NOT going into the coffers of the enemies who need it.

Your teams offlaner as well will get more resources if a second player had an active presence on the map. Furthermore as the game goes on, having 3 players who need resources/farm is a lot easier to deal with then 4 players who do, the players who need wealth end up getting it rather than fighting with one additional core. This 'wealth focus' is what the entire game was designed around and not to mention that lane creeps give FAR more exp/gold then jungle creeps.

In any case a while back I took stats of every single hero and put the ones who jungled into a spread sheet. Incidentally Luna did not qualify (too low a percentage games played in jungle) but the point is EVERY hero except Chen and Enigma has a worse win rate when they jungle compared to when they lane in at least one other lane, some heroes are overwhelmingly worse. Furthermore as skill level went up, 'greedy junglers' tended to get played less and supports get played more.

You will win games with this method but it's far more likely due to other players pulling more than their weight (in your case Dark Seer) rather then the strategy being a success but this is something most players won't understand.

jungle luna

@peachrocks i dont know how u usually lane in ur mmr range, but at 4,5-5k there is usually a solo offlaner. if my team marks dual offlane, i write to them that im solo off, cause dual off is in 90% useless. i rather have a jungler, roaming hero or second support. in the game mentioned there was ds solo offlane. i don't think ds needs a second offlaner ever -> that would just slow his leveling process.

well we will see how meta changes, but in my opinion getting resources of jungle for the first 10 min is a benefit for ur team and i have success with it. i play sven, luna, bs, jugger all jungle. luna and sven get more farm in jungle within the first 10 mins of the game -> let it put it this way -> just imagine jungler luna or sven is ur carry and u pick ur normal 1-1-3 heroes but the 2 supports can farm the safelane actually. i dont think thats a disadvantage for ur team or mappresence.

there stopped "jungle luna",

He thought you guys were going to lose because of your jungle Luna decision. He decided to spend most of the game flaming you for the perceived loss instead of playing right. I think people doing this actually WANT to lose because it would prove that he was right. I've had team mates intentionally feed the whole game to end it quick from min 1 because they thought someone made a stupid pick at the start. And if you win anyway, they continue to insist your decision was stupid because their ego won't accept that you managed to win 4 v 6 with your 'stupid' decision.

I've been in several matches where someone starts flaming at min 0 and tries to force an early loss on purpose to go to another game. I didn't think it was that uncommon.

@eternal meow yeah exactly my thoughts. some players have a really bad attitude. i m glad i have only few such games, but this game was worthy to mention, because of the uterly retardness of this jakiro. im still shocked guys haha

Jungle Luna the road to TI6 ,tbh Russians Tilt me so much I would Jungle luna if all cores are takens and If I wasnt in the fucking mood of sup.
Europe East=Russia East ,Eu West=Ru West

Jungle luna? omg VHS noob.
Very high skill play omg kappa

@ Mulatschak

Obviously solo offlane is usually optimal, I'm not saying go 2-1-2, but have the second 'support' jungle is clearly inferior unless they are actually a support and not a fourth core. The second support can do any number of things and sometimes the offlaner may want a bit of relief as very few people actually can competently offlane which admittedly does not help the win rate of greedy jungling.

You can say how people should lane and think of what you are doing as much as you like but one (or both lol) of the people who goes safe lane, will assume they are safe lane carry not the second support. Does Spectre look like a support to you?

Honestly I wouldnt be happy with jungle luna myself...playing at 4,5k bracket and junglers in general sucks...Dota community is very toxic, I have like 1-2 games out of 10 that are flame free with genuinly nice guys, rest have usually one, two flamers, ruiners. These people are entering wind flaming mindset and many things can release there flaming self. The point is - dont give people reason to flame. If you mark mid and some tool steal it with insta picking invoker, grab your will power and back off...It sucks, but fighting for it is sure loss...cant win vs troll. Same with picking jungling Luna...It might be good no doubt...I have very cool way to jungle abaddon...have like 67% winrate with him over 250+ games...but who cares, 3 out of 4 people fucked my mom last night and the second they die, they will flame me jungling for 5 minutes to reach level 6 and get basic items. Dont give people reason to flame you, because mark my word - they will - be better in dota and play the mind game.

^how do u jungle abaddon?

@peachrocks yeah i definitaly prefer normal safe lane, so spec and jakiro was ok for me. but it could be any combination of heroes -> 2 sups, offlaner sup, mid hero sup. the point is there is 1 more hero who gets farm.

@freddie yeah i know that its good to not giving the rest of ur team room for flame. sometimes its better to mark carry pos and to make a transition to jungle at lvl 3 or sth. basically its the same as jungler, but people dont flame than lol.. another tactic to calm ur raging teammates down is, that they should check recent games. usually they stop flaming afterwards.

It seems as though you make more money but you actually don't because of weakened lanes. Those stats I did are not a coincidence. Every greedy jungler is worse off when they jungle. EVERY SINGLE ONE. No exceptions.

Still, this is not exactly an uncommon belief and it's not going away any time soon.

Just be careful. You don't want to be flamed, don't do unorthodox stuff, otherwise you have to risk it.

i can give u stats too:
luna games this week:7 -> all jungle; wr= 100%; kda ratio = 6,64; gpm = 795; xpm = 803;
luna games this month: 18 -> nearly all jungle; wr = 94,44%; kda ratio = 6,1; gpm = 741; xpm = 766

u like a carry with this stats in ur team? than stop raging vs junglers..

Such a small sample has no worth. But whatever, I'm not changing your mind.

If it's a carry jungler (like a real carry) and rest of the team can stand 4v5 and protect you, sure why not. Generaly I don't like having greedy jungler on my team (worst cases are cliff-jungling NP and those legion commanders, recently I've encountered lots of Naix junglers) and I solo supporting with greedy jungler and team with weakened early game is pretty bad - I always end up having almost no gold since I just spend all my gold on wards and tps and almost all my time protecting our jungle and TP saving people from being dived. Bcuz we don't push, my economy is ruined, can't farm some line bcuz some1 from my team is dying and needs help etc...

anyway I'm shitty support so it doesn't count (and I have a bad habbit of sacrificing myself to let my carry escape even if it's his fault). I'm sure that in Your skill bracket supports are more competent and know how to spend their time effectively (also other ppl know better about timings their lineup has and don't mindlessly overextend when they are not ready to fight like ppl in 2k usually do - me included).

Sounds like youre a good jungler (knows how to do it with out just losing). The Jakiro reacted stupid, but most of us are used to junglers that afk for 15 min and come out with less farm then a hero that lost their lane.

Jungle Luna new meta.

@FredDie
How do you jungle Abaddon? MoM?

What the fuck is that alchemist 535 GPM lul

both line up actually retarded. i guess you got lucky that enemy alch and tinker are more retarded than your jakiro and spec. i dont know how potm can own alch on midlane. because as you described earlier, seems like no one try to gank mid XD.
and maybe storm always tried to catch tinker in that game so you got the most space to farm

IM JUST FUCKING TRIGGERED BY HOW THE WORDS "THEN" AND "THAN" ARE ALWAYS TOO OFTEN INTERCHANGEABLY MISUSED LIKE FUCK YOU GUYS LEARN ENGLISH AND SPARE EVERYONE ELSE FROM THE GRAMMATICAL MIGRAINE DAMMIT

kappa

Dont get coaxed into the same idea guys. We all know and should know that although the Jakiro did not handle the situation properly, he has the right to complain about Jungle Luna cause it is bad in every way. All his games jungling luna , if you see the opposition team they are as retarded in their picks so there is no merit to this technique. Maybe you should try spamming jungle luna in high end ranked games and not expect to tank your mmr. Youve been playing normal all picked games( Any moron can get away with any hero pick). It doesnt make it good. I guess youll learn sooner or later that Jungle luna is and always be a bad idea regardless of the flaming you got .
(JUNGLE LUNA , next thread boys )

No no. Jungle Abaddon next thread. I'm so curious.

most of the dota players are so small minded: they want to play like pros. if they are going mid with invoker they think they are miracle. they want to know what the meta heroes gonna be for patch xy and perma spawm it. copy, copy, copy..

the main difference between pro games and solo queuing is the lack of coordination. in my opinion u can take advantage of that in ur games. i dont want to change the playstyle of the players, i want tihem to be open minded towards new concepts.

@psydodogist alche was safelane and tinker was mid. storm and tinker were on same team, so that doesnt make sense. yeah i used all the space i could get -> therefore 13k tower dmg

7 am CET, 4 ruskis in my team, one of them was cliff jungling medusa! check it out it's new meta

I played with Venomancer jungle, on mind 0 he used 2 plague wards and used 1 iron branch! Bang
He was stuck on the cliff, and died cuz someone warded the ancient.
#normalskill

^haha i did that too, few games ago. u get lvl 6 in 5 min and can buy dagger at min 5 or 6. but yeah if they put a ward on the cliff u are fucked :)

The thing that makes me sad about this discussion is because you are partly right. People could stand to be a little more open minded but in this case... They are kinda right... Jungle core is not a new concept, it's a very old one and one that causes much frustration, even if done well mostly because the weight the jungle core puts on their team is largely invisible to them because they are never punished on their screen but very visible to the players carrying the weight and this problem makes them extremely resentful.

This weight can come in many forms such as a mid lane getting constantly ganked, by two supports, a more contested safe lane while the enemy safe lane is getting far more due to being unopposed due to an offlaner who can't handle the weight and can't contest properly, the solo support who is going to be dirt poor the whole game and lose any potential early game impact beyond not losing immediately. The 'extra' wealth a jungle core brings can outweigh these issues but it often doesn't, one or more of these problems will cause serious issues.

I guess because so many line ups play 4 cores these days you can get away with this far more easily because sure, I have tried jungle Luna, it's efficiency isn't half bad, there are better but she's far from awful and you will usually beat the other guy playing a fourth core. The problem is as skill level increases people get better at punishing this in the ways I mentioned above and some will make this problem very visible by giving you a visit which as you correctly point out, very rarely happens.

That said if this age old strategy of jungle core really worked, it'd get done in pro games and higher ranked games. It doesn't (or well far less in the case of the latter) and this inferior strategy only works because it's so likely the enemy team is doing a variant of it as well :D.

Couldn't have said it any better Peachrocks .