mana void is easy but sanity's eclipse? dear god how does one even guess the damage/mana burn unless you have 50 stolen int
@Kathy, I don't know. I've watched 6ks on streams who failed to do body-blocks, or deny their team-mate who was doomed and or deny towers and stuff like that.
If someone wants to go pro in DotA scene, in my opinion, only then they should be obsessed with 6ks, 7ks, (and now 8ks). Rest of them should just enjoy the ride wherever it takes them.
@Arin, I know right? The most disgusting thing I find while playing is finding my team-mate failing to pull-off Culling Blade. I literally grimace.
Skill is being able to have the shittiest hard offlane everytime when you play BrewMaster, yet somehow still have, drums, vlads, before you shitty AM finishes his battle fury. Kappa
Skill is playing jungle legion.
Map awareness, farming efficienty, decision making, reading situations well, predicting things etc.
Predicting your opponents position on the map at all times I would say. I am still learning this game though.
@Yorkey, that actually brings us to the point of micro-managing. Controlling Beast's boars & book minions, Druid's bear, Chen's army & pulling it off is definitely skill.
@Hanter, Good points, anticipation goes a long way. Cheers on tips.
Welcome to DotaBuff forums, Where Normal Skill players can't express their opinions because Very High Skill players always bully them. XD
Definition of skill is as complex as the game itself, but surely mastering one hero isnt skill, but may be wrongly considered as one. Skill is everything u mention and much more, including turning your advantage into objectives which is the biggest problem in most cases.
@Lex Hats off on that "turning advantage in to objectives," point.
On that mastering one hero, if the hero itself is complex and requires a lot of practice, I think, we can give benefit of doubt to label it "skill".
To oversimplify, I think mastering Invoker, for example, is not skill for me. But, knowing when to invoke which spells in battles other than just combo would be skill for me.
But, I agree with you. One-trick pony hero pool wrongly gets defined as skilled.
Mmr is actually a great indicator for skill, if you put five random 6ks together they're gonna easily beat a team of five 4ks that has been playing together for months if they try
I think MMR is a measure of skill more than anything else. Any other stats are obtained relative to the MMR at which the game was played.
Getting 60 cs at 10 minutes is far more difficult at 5k MMR than 4k MMR because the people laning against you are far better, competant ganks are far more likely, the margin for error is much smaller. Achieving a certain KDA, or GPM, or winrate is just not comparable at all without the MMR.
There are lots of different skills learned in dota, but all of them are only relevant insofaras they win games. And winning games is in turn measured by how skilled the players are in the games.
Any other measure of skill might be manipulated by playstyle to inflate a particular stat. But whatever you do that wins counts whether it is warding, cs, heals, pushing or kills. So it may sound boring, but really MMR is the measure of skill.
For example if I consider my Crystal Maiden games: In Normal Skill games (42 games) I have 59.5% winrate and KDA 2.70, GPM 279, XPM 364. Compare that to VHS games (26) winrate drops to 53.9%, KDA 1.71, GPM 247, XPM 287.
My stats for Crystal Maiden are vastly worse in VHS than NS. The same will be true for any player on any hero when they have a large number of games in both situations.
Even your best heroes will see the same sort of difference.
Lich - Normal Skill 23 games
91.3% winrate KDA 5.48
Lich - VHS 13 games
76.9% winrate KDA 2.47
murs? The once dotabuff top winrate guy? EleGiggle
OT: I think it starts with simply knowing what to do, when to do.
@Relentless
your winrate on Luna normal games are 62.50% (96 games), and 62.50% in 24 High Skill.
A little table:
Skill n. games win rate
Normal 1,439 52.12%
High 808 51.61%
Very High 93 55.47%
As you said playing at 5k is more difficult than 4k, but your teammates are also worst at 4k and the game is (I would say) more predictable at lowers mmrs.
That's true Mr. Lizzard. In fact my winrate on Luna is 87.5% for VHS, but its only 8 games.
I played over 500 games of Luna in Dota 1 so its probably my most practiced hero. Luna also benefits from good support a lot more than most carries. It's rather hard to directly win a game as Luna despite feeder teams. While Lich can directly win a lane, execute ganks, and turn teamfights alone with basically no farm. Anyway I understand well how to win games of Luna when I'm ahead, but really never found a reliable way to recover.
It's weak arguement, but I'm going to have to claim it's an aberation due to my using Luna a lot when my old PC was dieing. My winrate in Normal should be a lot higher but I kept losing to PC performance issues in those NS games.
My winrates are much higher in VHS because there are a lot of party games and I tryhard to win those. While the solo games I just played for fun. But I do think you can still see the difference with in-game stats if not winrate.
NS games 1439, KDA 2.68, GPM 324, XPM 408
HS games 808, KDA 2.40, GPM 303, XPM 392
VHS games 393, KDA 2.00, GPM 285, XPM 331
My stats get worse the higher the MMR goes.
Most of my heroes are really not good enough for Very High. If I randomed all the time I would not make it to 3700 MMR, and actually about half of my total games I did random heroes. But when I party qued with some friends who may be a lot higher (three are over 7k MMR and a dozen over 6k MMR).... well, for one thing I just get carried, but also I pick my best heroes and play to win.
skill = landing a game changing in the right time and the right place as known as one million dream carl and six millions universe'd
Being a respectful and good comrade towards 4 random and salty people takes a lot of social skills.
Yo OP sup mann, looks like ur knowledgable in doto, mann u shudnt have any probs climbing up. Add me up so i can spy on ur gamez :]
Now, the topic. For me its two things, KDA and Building damage man :]]
If you play with high KDAs and can do good rat doto then u damn skillful man :D
Skill: when you can decide the right time to use ur skill(y u use ravage for farm), buying right item according the situation u faced, map awareness,and ruining enemies' combo xD
Skill in dota is doing whatever it takes to win a match. It is a simple concept. For example farming is not really a skill in dota if it does not translate to the win.
I am still learning this game, but I feel as though skill is being able to play any character and doing well. Not just because you have mastered the characters, but because you have good map awareness, quick thinking and good decision making, and being able to communicate and synchronize abilities/passives well with other players.
Sano, Relentless, Murs, C Boy, Sam, Bad Intentions, Ayakami, Javi, Sampson, Elduryb -- Cheers for the answers.
Meka, I resonate with most of those no's but if few of them are deemed as "doesn't matter" then few of those heroes may fall victim to not playing to their full potential.
Map awareness, micro & macro, anticipation, game sense no doubt can gauge the skill of a player. Thanks for the reply. You're 6k support so seeing these points from your perspective is pretty interesting. Cheers.
Following on what I said earlier, I would say I am more skilled than my opponents because I can do this within 1 or 2 games with a hero: (not because I am good with the hero, but because I recently improved drastically in game knowledge). Working my way out of the potato bracket boyz :D
2nd game ever with DS:
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2102534285
3rd game ever with DP: (1st in this patch)
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2097222547
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Apart from usual matchmaking skill identifier as Normal, High, Very High, what do you consider skill in DotA?
* CS chart is skill for you? Hitting 10-20-30 minute target for CS including denies. (if you want to be like Dendi, you have to keep the most denies in matches on consistent basis, for like 6 years, first & foremost. Playstyle comes later).
* Playing Tinker / Invoker / Puck / Ebola Spirit to their near-to-full potential is skill?
* Not dying more than once in a match as support is skill?
* Knowing exactly when to hit Sanity Eclipse & Mana Void with calculation shows skill? (Do people even know what these ults do?)
* Do you know how passive skills work of the hero you're playing? Phantom's Blur? What does Luna's Lunar Blessing do at night time? How Reactive Armour of Timbersaw works in your favour?
* Do you exactly know the range of Blink Dagger? Like, you pull it off everytime or do you find yourself stuck in trees sometimes? QOP's Blink? Anti-Mage's Blink?
* Knowing and keeping Lane equilibrium as safelane while disrupting Lane equilibrium as Off-lane denotes skill?
* Is it mixture of all these things? Or, just knowing your role and doing what your role requires from you should label you as skilled?
* What is this "skill" in DotA for you, anyway? How do you define it?
* If you know all these things, you shouldn't be asking "When do I get to be in VHS?" on Dota Buff forum because, you definitely will one day. Tomorrow, exactly.
* Just tell me what skill is for you in first place. So, we all know we're on same level when we're talking about it.