" axe seems to counter me really bad"
use your treants to scout when splitpushing & don't stand in the front lines like you are BB/Undying/Superman when fighting
honestly it doesnt matter what build u go, so long as u are impactful. snipe couriers, set up/follow up on kills, tp to lanes. i usually have been getting 5 minute midases in the last few games mainly because i kill the enemy mid and/or courier in one or two goes, secure runes and sometimes get kills with them, otherwise it would take more and my team would fall behind if i didnt. so in general, be active on the map, going midas is usually fine since he benefits a ton from levels (faster points into teleport, wayy more points into ult = more damage less cd)
if u dont want to go midas id recommend just straight rushing treads orchid into blink and hex because it gives similar damage output (less because ur not as tanky and much less deterrent to kill you) but u can get like a 12 minute orchid and kill every1
Always send one of your trees to catch the wave when pushing towers. You can predict when the enemy wave will come by looking at your own creep wave in the opposite lane. Also they spawn at 30 and 00.
Early on grip a TP scroll (like level 2-3) so you can snipe that courier and get out safely.
just start off with a tp scroll if ur scared though usually if lanes are static enough i can safely snipe and walk out. worst case u deny urself to ancients, which is actually more efficient if u are able to buy out
It is extremely simple to play np. No matter what build you go, always push. I recommend never going necro, dagon, or e-blade, simply because I hate seeing those items on him and rarely see them work out anyway. You normally try to get midas and then farm off of pushing. If you don't see anyone on the map then gtfo as fast as possible cuz u gone get shrekt. If you are going to fight with your team try your best not to use your first ability since you prolly gonna mess it up, also stay behind the melee heroes. If you are close enough to your melee heroes to get caught by axe then you are too far up.
Pro tip: Since the first tier towers don't have backdoor tp there and take them with your treants. Its quite a bit of gold for your team and could help if you are behind.
Natures is such a versatile hero that I'm not gonna tell you what to go because it depends on the situation, but if you are buying bkb you probably lost.
^ Not entirely true :/
It is extremely simple to play natures yes, but its hard to master him. Getting good at natures prophet is not all that easy and there is a fine line between being an early game threat and making the right pushes at the right time to farming for 15+ minutes then split pushing non-stop.
I have built every build in the book almost with Natures and some are more effective than others, stagnating a build to SB + Necro's is limiting the hero massively. It also pays to note that using your treants to push with your team in the early stages of the game has a much greater impact than pushing another lane solo, these are the kind of things that set people apart.
Some variety of games are....
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/935897137 - Offlane which I prefer and a serious NP game.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/933812839 - For an example of objective focus.
That game of objective looked like this early, though we kinda gave away a bit too much later which hurt us.
03:36 The Radiant destroys the Dire Tier 1 Top Tower
05:02 Nature's Prophet Nature's Prophet destroys the Dire Tier 2 Top Tower
06:10 Nature's Prophet Nature's Prophet destroys the Dire Tier 1 Bottom Tower
08:39 Naga Siren Naga Siren destroys the Dire Tier 2 Middle Tower
09:42 Dazzle Dazzle destroys the Dire Tier 2 Bottom Tower
That's 5 towers in under 10 minutes and this wasn't a crazy push strat this was just being objective focused as an NP.
http://www.dotabuff.com/players/90503334/matches?date=&faction=&hero=natures-prophet&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration= Some games there show that I have done everything from Eblade Dagon to the Null Stacking with Blademail and even really pub tier builds. NP is a massively under appreciated and under utilized heroe. People literally think all this hero can do or should do is split push and that is as uninformed as it gets.
Well after this recent change i think i am going to play him as a fighter. What i do is i start on either jungle or offlane. Go for phase or power still trying to see whats better. I buy mael storm after my boots for some decent early game damage. Than i think: Is there a carry or someone annoying for me to silence for my team and me to do better? If the answer is yes i go to orchid. Than some damage like deso or sheep stick. If the answer is no and all of em are right clicker heros which i havent experienced before i would probably go for a deso or crit. Right after my orchid i go for a blink dagger for some mobility. Its really fun to jump on people isolate em and silence. It works pretty good. Just dont jump on melee range you dont want to be inside the trees you want to be outside the trees. I mostly farm jungle or push lanes because i can teleport to fights whenever i want so dont fool around and lose gold. Farm efficiently. Carry a tp because sometimes your own tp will be on cd and you might miss some fight you should take or defend towers. Also when you tp to somewhere if they gank you, you can sprout and tp away. Keep on playing him and create a build for yourself. I found that when i create a unique build for the heros i play i feel more confident playing those heros thus i win more often because i know i am good with them. Good luck bro.
Don't go cliff jungling, or jungling at all. Try to go offlane, and if things go really badly then retreat to the jungle. You should always try to make things happen, gank and take early towers and go for different item builds depending on the outcome of the game.
" NP is a massively under appreciated and under utilized heroe. "
Really? This hero is picked all the time
If you find yourself dying a lot just buy a Shadow Blade. At 3k MMR most people will neither have TP's nor dusts so you can split push pretty safely. Also never go for items that benefit your team because you shouldn't trust them. Always try to go for damage + survivability/mobility so you can still carry the game because you will probably be overfarmed.
You don't always need an orb. But best is generally Mjollnir, if you count it as an orb at least.
NP is a massively under appreciated - Something like a no skill split pusher is something i hear which is wrong.
under utilized hero - Using the hero as a split pusher is wrong.
Work hard on your map awareness. You should spend half of your farming time looking at the minimap and at other lanes, checking enemy items, levels, couriers, incoming ganks, etc.
Once you get used to be aware of what's going on in the map, playing np will be much easier. Set up ganks with your team (tp behind a hero or into woods), go split push whenever possible, farm jungle or ancients (both yours and enemy's), skip creepwaves to slow down enemy pushes, etc. BE ACTIVE, always do something. You have a free tp every 20 sec, abuse it .
Buy wards/dust/sentries if you need to. You farm fast and 150g is nothing if you can kill the enemy carry thanks to the obs in the enemy jungle or if you can avoid getting killed by nyx thanks to the sentry that you just bought. If you're aggressive and you like to fight then buy a fucking bkb.
Tbh I feel that NP is pretty weak compared to how it was a couple of months ago. He's not the hero who could win the game by himself just by ratting anymore.
how can i play against heroes like timber centaur and axe as nature? or they just counter me and i should not pick nature?
^You kill them before they hit their important levels?
Kite them
Avoid them
Position yourself.
Sheep, and forcestaff are you friends in those scenarios also pro prophet DD is right, you need to hit them before they farm or get levels.
I think mealstorm is better, its op for its cost. upgrading it right away is a bit of rip off.
Da bae havoc: He doesn't have to be a split pusher but he should always push when he can. It's almost hard to not push as natures
1 more question: how decent is aghanim on nature? when i go for a split push strategy should i make it first big item?
Aghs usually not worth it, you can use other items to farm and to take towers faster, such as maelstrom.
If enemy has lots of units to bounce on (Meepo, Chen, etc) then it would be worth in my opinion.
aghs is pretty crap. you get more benefit from a deso if you want to split push for example. maelstrom helps you clear creep waves faster and also helps you farm in downtime where an aghanims does not.
i'd only get it as an 8th item (7th being refresher) in ridiculously long games, and have a personal courier follow you around so that when you use your ultimate, it gets upgraded, but when it's cooling down, you'd much rather have a sheepstick in that item slot instead for example.
also dont skip boots. you can miss lots of kills by being unable to chase, or die because you can't run away from someone. even if you're one of those people who sits in the jungle for half an hour so you think movement speed is useless, phase and treads still provide efficient stats outside of their speed bonuses. movement speed helps you farm faster if you haven't already figured out.
definitely. not getting boots in the offlane is suicide, and even if you're jungling, there will be kill opportunities before you get midas.
you can even opt to get phase boots first, before getting midas, or skipping midas entirely and getting maelstrom as a substitute, which also gives you decent damage in fights.
when shadow blade was good on prophet (12s duration 18s cd) treads were fine because you had shadow blade for mobility, and both items gave attack speed giving you good dps.
shadow blade is not as viable anymore so for other mobility alternatives there is blink and/or force staff, as well as phase boots. mobility is not just for escaping, but can be used aggressively. phase's movement speed boost may let you get into range to cast sprout for example.
if you can get phase early, they also help in dominating the offlane, since your attack animation is really good they make getting last hits + denies fairly trivial. having none of these items makes you really easy to get picked off while you are split pushing.
fyi with the null talisman stacking build, you should get blade mail as well. the point of the nulls, as well as the blade mail is to have really strong damage in the early to midgame (blade mail gives 22 damage and 10 int, resulting in 32 damage for 2200g), and the nulls also give you extra stats so that you have more survivability and therefore can reflect more damage. midas does not suit the build because it doesn't help you fight early, and not getting boots makes your ability to fight much weaker because you'll get kited to shit, and phase/treads give insanely good dps for their cost in the early game. treads help in this build because you can also get extra HP from str treads, and they provide more dps than phase does because you already have nulls + BM giving you 50+ damage.
if you look at bone7's matches on NP (he was the one who started the nulls + blade mail build I believe)
http://en.dotabuff.com/players/88719902/matches?date=&faction=&hero=natures-prophet&lobby_type=&game_mode=®ion=&duration=
you'll see that he doesn't ever get midas with the build and gets maelstrom instead. which helps you farm faster like the midas - but also helps push faster and provides more damage in teamfights than a midas does.
@law Most offlaners actually start with boots, tango, and clarity.
Like Andro said, midas isn't required if going the early aggression blademail and nulls. That's more if you want to split push late game, and midas if you're confident you can make it to the late game.
Phase is more of the early aggression item because of the damage it provides, also allows you to not get kited and to run through your treants when body blocking enemies with them. Treads are strong for split push prophet because of the extra attack speed.
people need to learn that theres 2 parts to split pushing, not just the one where you are away from your team and pushing lanes
thats right when you splitpush and force a tp you're supposed to fight the now-5v4
the problem is theres a lot of heros that can deal with NP splitpush now (Legion and bat come to mind) so you want to be building for more of a utility/damage item build. personally ive seen treads deso do a lot of work against low mobility lineups, and if you orchid rush against ember/morph/antimage/void you will shit on them the entire game, provided you have one other person who can gank with you. but getting a 10-11 minute orchid w/ boots is not out of the question, and you can still help your team a lot because orchids buildup is pretty effective for both jungling, pushing and fighting
Furion is one of extremely few heroes that can still jungle efficiently from lvl 1 (which Axe, LS and Lycan for ex can't anymore). As such you have to pick him and keep in mind that you need a competent solo offlaner who can bear the weight of your first 10min of afk farming.
"Furion is one of extremely few heroes that can still jungle efficiently from lvl 1 (which Axe, LS and Lycan for ex can't anymore). As such you have to pick him and keep in mind that you need a competent solo offlaner who can bear the weight of your first 10min of afk farming."
I have never heard so much trash in a single paragraph!
1. Axe farms the jungle faster than any hero along with enigma.
2. Natures is actually a slow jungler to start due to the high mana cost of treants and to jungle effectively with him you need to sacrifice a lot of your early game presence.
3. Lifestealer can jungle fine if you're not dumb
4. Lycan can jungle fine if you're not dumb.
5. Natures is a superb offlaner and the fast levels allow you to be useful early game and most good offlaners will know how to offlane prophet, but again it won't work if you're an idiot.
6. 10 minute afk farming is something I would expect from a normal skill player.
Sorry but your advice on the topic is way way way off. Source: I play Axe jungle and NP offlane and have proven efficiency time and time again.
No need to go off like that. You're taking what I said out of context. Let's put this into perspective. Would you argue said heroes are as good at jungling as they where.. says 6.79-80 (LS hasn't received any change to feast from what I recall but he still gets real low on hp)? During this time Furion has received next to no balancing. All of those mentioned are still among the best junglers available though.
Also I did not claim NP is a bad offlaner, I said he needs a teammate who's a good solo offlaner to make up for his absence if he doesn't go to a lane.
All you have to do is watch and copy admiral bull dog's style and you will be successful. Or alternatively look at replays from top ranked NP players. This works for every hero.
Talk about a lack of common sense 3k mmr brain, probably 3k mmr retard in rl life too.
"which Axe, LS and Lycan for ex can't anymore" I think you made it pretty clear you thought none of them could jungle which was not me taking it out of context as much as you not giving it any.
I guess when you're a better player anything is possible, for example when with a low stack I will do hard carries offlane solo and 8/10 end up winning my lane and out farming people. Anything is viable if you have the know how, common/gaming sense, and the skill to match.
As a statement..I can out farm an NP jungling as Axe easily till he hits level 6 and spams ult for farm which will hurt his lane synergy anyways so it's a win win for any half decent jungler.
to jungle fast you need damage. although treants can tank, their damage is pretty shitty hence why NP is a bad/slow jungler. as a NP you get more gold and levels going solo offlane. you only need like 3 cs per min to outfarm a jungler. even if u dont get farm in the offlane, you will get fast levels, and then u can hop into the jungle at lv 5 or w/e from the fast offlane XP, when you'd normally only be lv 3 if u were jungle to make up for your lack of cs.
• naix is decent (if you're not dumb like havoc said) because of feast also increases ur damage you just need to choke point jungle to reduce damage taken.
• enigma is fast because he has lots of damage from uncledolans, plus midnight pulse reduces travel time
• lycans also fast because he has wolves dealing extra damage, you just gotta move ur wolves back and fwd, or you lose like a third of your dps.
• idk about axe since i have no experience with him, but im sure havoc does. just make sure u stack a camp every minute i guess.
• old bloodseeker had no dmg so he was shit, now his heal also gives him extra damage, so i guess he's okay so long as u choke point.
" Anything is viable if you have the know how, common/gaming sense, and the skill to match."
But the OP is 3k with over 2k+ matches played which indicates something of this is missing. Hence he should probably just play it safe early.
That's why tb is so good at jungle too, tons of dmg. It's not just about sustain. Sometimes quicker to run back to camp/die and just keep outputting dmg.
"playing a greedy 4th core instead of a support is safe?"
Looking at the matches OP is playing I doubt anyone is taking a 1-5 player pos into account. In many there isn't even supports.
@vintervind
if you look just at my normal matchmaking it doesnt say much actually cause im playing a lot with a friend that just started, in my 3k games people seem to get balanced picks most of the time,at least 1 support and all.
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for some reason i cant be sucessful with him, his play style is really fun for me so im decided to get good or at least not bad with him, been using the blade mail build in my last games , axe seems to counter me really bad. dotafire guides dont seem to work on me, anyone got helpful insight on effective builds?
btw: im 3k shit