General DiscussionTidehunter, Earthshaker comparison

es is not good on the offlane compared to tide. He is not good because he is squishy(unlike kraken shell tide), can't farm at all(unlike anchor smash) and he has almost 0 escape. His mana pool is also horrible. That's why if you watched the pro scene, he is played as a roaming support with something like a skybird or mirana. He can set up kills pretty well and help win mid really hard.

Now if we are talking teamfights imo es is much better. Tidehunter is more of a set up initiator, for things like a blackhole or a wall+vacuum combo. If you don't have any followup as tide you're gonna be pretty much screwed because you lack dmg. Whereas es can deal some serious dmg(depending on the enemy team ofc). Esp if he has something like and aghs or even early lvls.

For what I think tide is really good as a tanky hero that can initiqte whereas es can deal serious dmg. Nevertheless that's why you build items like shiva or pipe on tide, to boost his tankability evenn more.

Tide with refresher is another story. Tide can do some serious dmg with refresher but only if its taken early. In late game where ppl have much more hp its not gonna deal more dmg compared to an es.

You pick Tide when you want to win your offlane.

You pick ES when you want someone who can make ganks happen constantly, and add a lot of damage to your team fights.

So should ES initiate fights or blink in after for dmg?

ur wrong es is a decent offlane

he gets more exp than most offlaners, kzz plays him offlane alot too http://www.dotabuff.com/players/106497354

earthshaker isn't that similar to tide, tide is more similar to sand king imo, which isn't saying much since they aren't that similar to begin with. both of whom are more reliant on blink than earthshaker since fissure has a much longer range, so an earthshaker with no blink is more useful than a sand king without one.

although they are more reliant on blink, hey also have better farming capabilities as a result, tide with anchor smash and sand king with sand storm, while earthshaker can't do this nearly as well with totem + aftershock and earns his gold by participating in kills.

playing tide as a support is wasting his ancient stacking potential (if on dire) and also the ability to win the offlane against melee heroes with a 0-2-3 build. gush is pretty mediocre, idk how you consider it a 'good' lane disable compared to the disables of other supports (besides sand king with his shitty burrow range early on), it has nowhere near the potential of fissure

"So should ES initiate fights or blink in after for dmg?"

well it depends. the aoe stun is only due to aftershock, which has a small radius of 300, whereas the damage radius of echo slam is much larger. if you blink in first you risk stunning less people.

you don't blink in later on for damage, you blink in afterwards (which is counter-initiating) because people will tunnel vision in the heat of the moment, which causes them to group up for not just the echo slam, but the aftershock stun, with also totem follow-up and a likely fissure too, that's almost 5 seconds of aoe stun if the enemy are grouped up really tight.

if you don't initiate then you should be counter-initiating instead, generally you shouldn't be the follow up damage because echo slam has an instant cast time unlike most spells and you want the extra aftershock damage + stun too, which means that it's harder to react to, compared to something like ravage or vaccuum for example, but if your team have stronger disables that also reposition the enemy close to each other e.g. reverse polarity or black hole, then it may be better for the magnus/enigma to go first, because of their larger radiuses and the fact they go through magic immunity, they will disable heroes that you may not have stunned with aftershock, as well as letting you stun those heroes with aftershock by repositioning them closer to each other.

if a dark seer has a blink and the enemies are slow to react then you can also follow up with echo slam during the brief disable of vaccuum.

fyi tide refresher is for the disable, not the damage, which is just a side bonus. having such a large aoe makes it much easier than most other teamfight abilities to disable the entire enemy team for 5 seconds, making the ability useful mainly for it's ability to disable more targets than most spells, whereas things like RP or black hole go through BKB to make up for their smaller areas of effect.

es has more damage while tide has better disable, farming and lane presence. those are the main differences i think

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/885057554

here solo offlane ES, i only died once in lane when SB is trying to gank btm cause i was being aggresive.

1-1-3-1 at lvl 6

imo this skillbuild gives more dmg with es low mana pool during early stages of game

I think that last line is a good summary, es more dmg, tide better disable etc. Though es lane presence can be pretty good with well placed fissures.

I've been playing tide more often as my go to support but Ive heard a lot of people remark that es is easy wins. Maybe I will have to try him some more.

I didn't mean offlane solo, I meant in conjunction with others cus you stun, block and kill em. Yes fissure by yourself would have no use, just like gush has no use except maybe to run away. I always go 0231 on tide at 6, then maybe get a point in gush since I usually start to roam or backup other lanes once I have ult.

Es is a really weak laner and has massive manaproblems early on. In Teamfights his ult can be devastating specially in narrow fighting spots. His chainstun is great. If you fall behind you have a really hard time catching up, but es needs the dagger and levels to be effective. You have an overall much higher dmgoutput than tide.
His big advantage is his roaming ability.

Tide on the other side is a strong offlaner with great debuff and farming abilitys, even if you had a bad start you can solve this problems with a few ancients in no time. His debuffs during teamfights are strong (slow, armor reduction, dmg reduction) and he is really tanky.
Tides problem is that he has a pretty low dmgoutput specially compared to es. He needs his team following and actually winning the fight.

Overall i would say es is a more risky but higher rewarding hero, he comes online with lv1(roaming) tide with 6. And he can turn the game in your teams favor from the start. And he don't need his ult to be a danger. He is really easy to gank though cause he stays squishy normally.
On the other hand tide is a strong teamfighter but he needs his ult to shine. Even if you get ganked you are tanky enough to survive and turn the battle in your favor if your teammates are near. Overall the safe version, difficult to kill great abilitys.