@ sampson "even TC stopped buying mana boots in his competitive matches (dont watch his pub games)"
Why? You should play pubs like he plays pubs, because pubs are not situations where you are supported by a professional team with coordination. With about 6k MMR, he knows how to win a pub or two, and his play style will surely differ than when he plays a professional match.
Quick, top-down example: S&Y is strong in pubs. I have heard AUI joke that he wins almost every game he gets an S&Y. The reason is pretty simple, it gives you tons of survivability through move speed and HP. Ganks are way stronger in pubs due to the lack of coordination. S&Y, casual bracer, things like that, while not seen in professional matches, can often strengthen your pub play.
It's pretty much you go all-in midgame and try to end fast with deso into small crits or you go bfury and fight well, farm well, and carry really hard.
Don't get deso with bfury there's 0 synergy.
Idk how to control runes with qw build against a real mid like qop/puck/krob though. I mean I can maybe beat them to rune but I lose a wave of xp or they zone me out with the extra regen if I don't get rune.
basically he is stating that you shouldn't care of what pros do against other pros because they don't remain to your bracket
if you are in playing low tier games there is no point to build a hero like a pro, if your opponents aren't pro.
pro players go for drum cuz it adds dmg, hp, AS and +9 all attributes. it's a great item. but in pub games where you are confident that you can rely only on your positioning, you dont HAVE to go for drums as it will delay your bfury. bfury is more useful on Ember than Drum is, atleast in low tier games. So why would you build something that will not bring too much to the table just because pros do it? Pros do it cause they cant rely only on their positioning cause they will face an equal skilled team, which will exploit their flaws. Thats not going to happen OFTEN in pubs, so if you can rush a bfury its way better for the tier you are playing at.
its like playing ursa on 2k. most pro players buy bkb. but WHY WOULD YOU buy a bkb if in this tier ppl just don't focus you and you can devastate anyone with a shadow blade? so basically i'd have to make a bkb and spend 4k gold for a item that i will not use cuz ppl suck? lol no point at that
the same goes for drum, if you feel that you can do well without with in your bracket, why would you buy it?
because it is only 'working' because his opponents are handicap. He tries to oversimplify stuff saying well it worked for me so it must be right. That logic is like someone asking
"how do I play basketball"
Well you just walk down the court and dunk it in the net. (keep in mind this guy is saying this form the perspective of playing with a 2 foot basketball net in his backyard)
when people ask for help they ask for help fighting competent players not bots
but yeah... you're handicapped
we're in the shit tier (4k)
so we might as well use efficient builds rather than going for something that is redundant
it's actually more like this:
you: "im so-next-level, ive watched pro games"
me: "okay... but what works in this shit bracket (as you so call it)?"
me: we're not playing pros vs pros or a tournament where most likely every player is stellar
you telling me that ember is incapable of flash farming and is better off going phase/drums/bottle simply because pros do, doesn't quite cut it.
please... don't even talk about over simplifying :/ you were just tryin to compare pro games to shit tier games as if they were played in the same fashion
SIMPLIFICATION.
yeah and you're not going to fight competent players with just a change in skill build
but i suppose that everyone in "shit tier" knows less or plays less skillfully on every single hero in comparison to the pros.
i suppose that your BH is below scrub level in comparison to the pros.
trying so hard to insult me that you completely neglect any form of a argument. I never once said these pro players only build these items only against other pros. Look at all of their pub matches its the EXACT same shit when they play pubs
Yes my reaction time and my game awareness on BH is nowhere near a pro level and I am not as delusional as most people in the 4-6k range.
and last point, yes you are simplifying it because your only 'evidence' is 'well I played ember a couple games in the potato bracket and I won a couple'
well samsung, again i'd like you to take a look at yourself before you say, "completely neglect any form of an argument".
you're not realizing that perhaps PROS are matched with other PROS perhaps a little less skilled but still advanced nonetheless.
there was a guide out there that i agreed with that touched base on people who play aggressive early game, and then failing to take advantage of their map control, i.e. not warding enemy jungle, not ganking + keeping pressure on lanes
this is what happens in what you call, shit tier. now instead of being moronic and following the herd of sheep, play a little bit smarter if you can get away with it and WALAH
oh, how i love your simplifications.
couple = 27
that's the new couple.
samagama is redefining history (;
It has nothing to do with 'following the herd' is has to do with seeing what works and what does not work. You cant even maintain a 60% winrate with ember, in what delusional world do you live in to be thinking that it is working.....
that comment was that regardless of where you stand (if a small sample size is valid you are wrong and if a small sample size is not valid you are still wrong)
I have stated many times that you dont need to copy what pros do all the time BUT that does not mean you throw your head in the sand and ignore all evidence.
didnt read any of the posts but just to reply to OP
1 1 4 is ALWAYS the build if you want to gank/help other lanes when ur 6.
1 4 1 is the most useless build ive ever seen in my life, that build is for afk farming cuz u can't solo kill jack shit asides from squishies like sniper or lich
oh and arcane boots is a must at 6, if u go phase ur gona be oom/insufficient mana pool to combo off ur skills etc, transition into phase mid-late game, noobs who go phase are the ppl who pick ember safe lane farm and plays him like am
At level 6 with no items he'll have 30.8 int. Rounding it down to 30 to be in your favour (since you're arguing his mana pool is too small without Arcanes), that's 390 mana at level 6.
Searing Chains has a static 110 mana cost, SOF has a static 50 mana cost, and Flame Guard's is 80/90/100/110 and Remnant is 150 at all levels.
Using only Q, W and E, his spells cost somewhere between 240 to 270 mana. So with max Flame Guard you'll be short of the mana required to use remnant by 30 mana, which can be solved by either a Bracer or Magic Wand which will give +3 int (39 mana), a Magic Stick with 2 charges, or using a Bottle charge for a little over 1 second, any of these items which are cheaper than Arcane Boots.
Arcane Boots is not required on Ember Spirit in the same way that getting 2 levels of stats on Juggernaut to ult + spin at level 6 is not required, because you are wasting valuable skillpoints or gold for an extremely small timing window that will very quickly pass and you may not even make use of, which will waste your skill points in the case of Juggernaut, or in the case of Ember Spirit, you are wasting 1000 gold to be able to use all your spells that can be solved by other items that are cheaper, and they also don't make you less effective later on (when you have Arcanes instead of Phase later in the game).
If you're getting Arcane Boots so that you can use all your abilities at 6, and then you end up not doing anything before you reach level 7, then there was no point doing so when your passive int gain from levelling up would've given you the mana pool you required without you wasting 1000 gold.
Arcane Boots are not the go-to boots for Ember Spirit. Not saying they can't be gotten, but saying they're "a must" on ES is just plain wrong, since Phase are also a viable option, and also the more common one even at higher levels of Dota. If no one on your team (even the supports) have Arcane Boots, they could be worth getting, but even in that case, Phase can still be the better option.
Maybe you prefer Arcane Boots because mana management is less of a problem, others might not have that problem in the first place, hence why they get Phase for example. Same with Drum of Endurance. Maybe some people like to play with more risk involved but get better rewards (e.g. getting a fast BF might pay off, other times the Drum would've helped more than the Perseverance when you don't have the BF finished yet).
bro nice analyze, i was gonna just do my pub flame cuz most pubs r delusional but since you put so much effort i'll explain to you in a proper manner
yes you are correct, after the usage of all combos u will be short of 30 mana which can be sub by magic wand/bottle etc, now let me tell u why this is a problem
in a mid vs mid, if you want to kill a competent player at mid at lvl 6 +, you will need MORE than 1 rem to kill for SURE, most of the time 2 will do, occasionally 3. Now, without mana boots, you won't have the base mana pool to sustain your combo, AND, lets assume you have phase/wand/bottle, after 1 combo, presumably you kill some noob like sniper mid, you are left with 0 mana, if opp gets rune control at the next even mark, what are you going to do? tp/base for mana? walk to base for mana? afk farm?
The difference between a good ember and a bad ember is their ability to gank and their solo kill ability at mid, i will conclude that ANY ember who thinks sidelane is good are just simple baddies that does not realize the potential of the hero.
Now, let's talk about the price, do you REALIZE how expensive bottle + magic wand is? its 650+ 550 = over 1k, excluding the begining branches, let's say 1k total, when i ember, I almost NEVER go bottle mid because i can farm an arcane in 3-4mins which will solve ALL my mana problems from early-mid game till i have acquired my first bfury. Of course, not everyone can do that, just saying. So if you are bad at 1v1in, then ur going to need to buy those items. You probably should not even play ember if you suck at solo mid in the first place.
For the baddies who go phase drum stick bottle, ignoring phase since i'd be buying mana boots for roughly the same price, that's an additional 650+550+1750=2950 wasted, and for me, those 2950 gold are spent for my 1st bfury which will happen in about 13-17mins depending on the game, but for normal pubs, it'll happen between 20mins+ earliest. And don't gimme that bs about drum stick are for survivability etc, since ember is a hero with 3 insta-blinks, if you are dying then you don't know how to play the hero properly, the hero has a 600 magical dmg absorb with a free radiance at lv 7, FOR THOSE WHO cannot REALIZE.
I've raped countless invokers/qop/puck/ranged heros that ppl say ember can't lane against, its simply false misconception, theres a reason by an imbalanced hero (yes, ember is currently imbalanced), have lower than a 50% win rate in pubs.
I just think the way people argue is really funny...
I go mid because I like being high impact midgame. I think bottle is so good on him I would even buy it safelane. Giving charges to your teammates is just so good, plus when you return to your spirit you have time to give 2 free charges. I think people often forget this.
Also I'm not good pls don't call me out haters
I think he meant get a bracer, a wand, or a bottle, rather than two or all three for the chars in his example. Just my understanding of his post.
Bottle crowing solves his mana issues, but in pubs can be unreliable bc side laners, especially supports, love to use the courier to bring one item at a time.
noobs still do not realize bottle does not solve his mana problems, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz give up
u guys should all go bottle/drum/stick cuz my build is way too high level for pubs
Elsa does mention a good point about bottle though, ignoring the bottle cost, its still 2400 which is a shit load of money that went to the drain by getting useless BUT noob friendly items like drum , dont gimme the pros go these items bs, pros get it because its a team item, in pubs u can't rely on your team for the end of the world.
You have to often consider your allies as useless creeps because they literally are, except they feed for 250 gold instead of 45. For example, if you are a high-tier axe playing, after you blink into 5 heros and gets all of them with your call. In your mind :" ok es willl blink ulti and we'll get ez rampage, ez game", then u see the es walking around in circles and fissuring creeps, etc. oh and not to mention the flame afterwards from ur retarded teammates who says you got caught again etc. Hence in pubs it's the best to pick 1v5 heros like sf/storm/ember/void/phx/tb/etc, dont need to give a fuck about your team as long as you rape your lane and help other lanes to rape harder. There is a reason why mid is the most important lane in pubs, u shut down ur mid, have a +2 lvl adv, then proceed to rune control/rape sidelanes + helping noobs to get kills INSTEAD of dying, = infinite + gold + experience and infinite - gold - experience for enemy
Pubs != professional games. Professional games are bounded with near flawless teamwork and communication. Pubs are not.
As for items, minimum 1 bfury with burizas, anything else is trash, ember has the greater carry power than void late game in terms of counter pushing/team kill ability, void has higher 1v1 solo kill ability but thats it. Ember can 1 shot 5 heros easily with the right skill build and the right positioning. It'll take too long to explain so yall have to figure it out urself.
You really think you are a high tier player right ?
Bottle and drums bad items on ember
"noob friendly items like drum , dont gimme the pros go these items bs, pros get it because its a team item"
"ember has the greater carry power than void late game in terms of counter pushing/team kill ability, void has higher 1v1 solo kill ability but thats it."
may I ask why do you sound so arrogant about your ember knowledge
you barely have 55% winrate which is pretty standard
I'm not full of myself like that even when I talk about tinker because I know I'm not even near pro level
TC was the person who started the whole arcane boots thing. I spoke to him about it and early when ember spirit first came out he was so sure about the fact that he needed mana boots. When he learned how to play the hero better he realized that mana boots are just a crutch for poor mana management.
I am pretty sure that the reason why every pro player is getting drums is for the stats, if they wanted the item only for the aura another hero would get it.
Ember does not scale better than spectre medussa or void, hero dies like bitch late game and if you need to get bkb ( enemy is not dumb they will get orchid hex etc ) you will lose damage, and not even pro players can dodge everything with his skills.
You are saying that the hero can dodge any damage with his skills, bullshit, pro players die a lot with him, you die a lot with him too, saying that the hero scales late game because you are going to get 3 or 4 sof in battle is bullshit.
@nobody, cuz i like to troll and deliver meaningful and insightful msgs in a troll fashion, i never bragged about my ember WR etc, i lose cuz i like to troll and play for fun, anyways i rarely post cuz noobs dont understand
@sampson, ok, that's fair, and i do agree that in a real, balanced, team work game that you will not need mana boots. My key point is pubs here. My whole point is mana boots is that the item itself is replaceable with 2950 gold of items, with the ability to kill @6 and sustain mana. If you can tell me the way of killing a full hp competent mid hero at lvl 6 without mana boots, then u can knock urself out. I can confidently say that I can kill almost any solo mid asides from OD(cuz of astral) and invoker(cuz of invis) at lv 6 with mana boots.
I have tried countless builds with ember and I know the flaws of each skill build and item build. Maximizing the efficiency of items and skill build is key in playing all heros, with only phase boots and bottle, usually what most pubs can get at lvl 6, you are not capable of killin a full hp solo mid hero in any way. I usually often have over 5 kills with ember under 10mins, and I have tried doing this with phase/bottle/stick/drum, it's no where nearly as effective, first of all, it delays ur fury by huge, second, you'd have to sell your small items very soon because you don't have space in your inventory.
@dorkly, ur just a noob who i don't even wanna bother replying. Theres a reason why i have near 5 kda with ember in 115 games, u can try to do the same, i'll bow to u if u can do it bra
I'm only replying to sampson as he is pbly the most ignorant dota player on the forums, but at the sametime, who is semi competent at the game, just doesnt realize his flaws
o shit didn't see knight of noob's picture post, bro are u bad at reading, i always transition into phase mid-late game as i get my first fury. zzz nubs r gona remain to be nubs
Why do they not get Arcane Boots on Ember Spirit then? That's a team item isn't it?
Arcanes give Ember Spirit 100 mana every 55 seconds, equivalent to 1.8 mana per second. Assuming you only get the runes every 2 minutes, Bottle gives you 210 mana every 120 seconds, or 1.75 mana per second, although in some cases, a player may bottle crow, which takes about 40 seconds, but to give the benefit of the doubt, just say bottle crowing takes one minute, which would you 3.5 mana per second, and the difference between the Bottle and Arcane Boots is that you can always be full with Bottle because it restores mana somewhat constantly whereas Arcane restores it in bursts.
Later in the game, especially when you have Battle Fury(s), the 1.8 mana regen per second of Arcanes becomes less and less useful, in fact, negligible. Bottle still has its uses in storing runes, and also shortening fountain trips if you only keep it in the stash.
If Bottle does not solve Ember's mana problems, how is Arcane Boots any different? The increase in pool that Arcanes gives is offset by the fact that Bottle gives you more regeneration and the increase in pool is only relevant when you are at full mana. When you're in lane with half mana waiting for Arcanes to come off cooldown, that 250 mana doesn't do anything at that point.
"u guys should all go bottle/drum/stick cuz my build is way too high level for pubs"
If it is so good, why are professionals not using it? I mean if it's so good that pub players aren't good enough to use it, then it'd only be used at the professional level right?
"noob friendly items"
I could argue that Arcane Boots are noob friendly because of the huge leniency they give in terms of mana management. You don't need to bother with runes, and the mana pool increase allows you to spam all your spells a grand total of once after you leave the fountain at level 6.
"Ember can 1 shot 5 heros easily with the right skill build" That would require items, not the correct skills. By the time you have the items you're already maxed out on skill points. All that is required is Sleight of Fist to be maxed. You could have nothing but SOF, stats and Remnant and it would be "the right skill build" if you had multiple Daedeluses and Battle Furies.
On your previous post, which I only just read now, you said:
"after 1 combo, presumably you kill some noob like sniper mid, you are left with 0 mana, if opp gets rune control at the next even mark, what are you going to do?"
If the opponent gets the next rune, bottle crow. I don't see how you're in any better of a situation if you had Arcane Boots. You're still going to be at low mana, and it's not like the regen from Arcane's will restore you to full. It's 1.8 per second, similar to getting a rune every 2 minutes, and slower and less reliable than bottle crowing.
Lets say with Arcanes you use your full combo and you're now left with 100 mana, and you use the active afterwards. You have 200/700 mana. Then what? That's not enough to do a full combo either, and it'd take you much longer to reach full mana than with a Bottle since you also have to restore the 250 extra mana that the Arcanes gives.
holy shit srry guys im creating a post war here, ok i admit defeat, u all pwn and the conclusion is phase/drum/stick bottle for ember. Go knock yourselfs out bros
"I can confidently say that I can kill almost any solo mid asides from OD(cuz of astral) and invoker(cuz of invis) at lv 6 with mana boots."
But does that mean you always kill the enemy mid when you're 6 with Arcanes? If not, then you could've still killed the enemy mid with Phase Boots once your int from levelling up got higher.
You're also an advocate of maxing Flame Guard, which requires you to get close to the enemy. If the enemy has enough magic damage to break the shield, or simply physical damage, and your kill attempt ends up not being successful, what do you do to restore health?
Quoting you, "tp/base for mana? walk to base for mana? afk farm?"
How often do you get forced out of lane because you have insufficient health regen? At low health all the mana in the world won't help you last hit.
If you truly believe your way of building ES is right, explain to us how then. Considering your mentality of picking indepdent heroes and not relying on your teammates, I'm inclined to think that you're just delusional of your skill and unwilling to accept advice from others. The people who you are getting paired up with are of a similar skill to you, but somehow you think otherwise.
LOLED SO HARD he should be addaed to those polls from other topic as most funny forum user 10/10 would vote
"1 1 4 is ALWAYS the build if you want to gank/help other lanes when ur 6.
1 4 1 is the most useless build ive ever seen in my life, that build is for afk farming cuz u can't solo kill jack shit asides from squishies like sniper or lich" who the fuck goes 1/4/1
So just because Arcane boots give the mana of a drums, stick and a bottle and they are cheaper, they are way better right? Because let's just forget the stats and aura from drums, burst heal from stick, storing runes by bottle because you know, they don't give enough mana. Also phase gives damage and 24 damage for a 1350 item is even better than a claymore. I have only 1 game with ember and didn't really play him in dota 1 either, but god the fact that you are disaggering to everything but your opinion means you are just a fucking moron.
@MADS ok mby when you have 8 min bf its valid. I was just saying that usual non-flameguard build is smth like 3/3/0 and i think its berger even with bf that fast + depends on situation ofc.
eh... ive been seein a lot of ppl fail with that tho, maybe its not because of the build but positioning... who knows
if its hard i go 1-1-4
if its somewhat normal/easy i go 1-4-2
if its ridic easy just 1-4-1
i havnt seen anyone own with chains as much as with flame guard + fist
i find the 1 sec duration and 20 dmg quite minor in comparison to putting points into stats after W and E are maxed
ive considered leaving my ulti at lvl 1 as well, which would mean @ lvl 16 i would have +14 stats to all
with the drawback of 1 less possible target, 1 second shorter, less magic dmg, (80 instead of 300)
also less remnant dmg but... eh :/ i rarely ever use it for the damage...
i guess the more optimal build for people who probably hate my build, is to just keep chains at lvl 3 (80, 120, 240 - lvl 3) as its the biggest dmg increase, and consider leavin remnant at lvl 1
@ sampson "even TC stopped buying mana boots in his competitive matches (dont watch his pub games)"
Why? You should play pubs like he plays pubs, because pubs are not situations where you are supported by a professional team with coordination. With about 6k MMR, he knows how to win a pub or two, and his play style will surely differ than when he plays a professional match.
Quick, top-down example: S&Y is strong in pubs. I have heard AUI joke that he wins almost every game he gets an S&Y. The reason is pretty simple, it gives you tons of survivability through move speed and HP. Ganks are way stronger in pubs due to the lack of coordination. S&Y, casual bracer, things like that, while not seen in professional matches, can often strengthen your pub play.
I said I did not watch his pub games not the fact that pub games do not matter
http://dotabuff.com/matches/593350275
He was the one who started the whole arcane boots theory and now as corrected that mistake
I go Phase -----> Drums -----> Deso ------> Crit -----> BKB/Linkens and it has really been working out.
I might try 2x BF but it doesn't really seem worth it?
bfury is the highest dmg dealing item by a LARGE margin
Ill give it a go, then.
It's pretty much you go all-in midgame and try to end fast with deso into small crits or you go bfury and fight well, farm well, and carry really hard.
Don't get deso with bfury there's 0 synergy.
Idk how to control runes with qw build against a real mid like qop/puck/krob though. I mean I can maybe beat them to rune but I lose a wave of xp or they zone me out with the extra regen if I don't get rune.
How to mid? Help me @_@
i think i get what mads is saying
basically he is stating that you shouldn't care of what pros do against other pros because they don't remain to your bracket
if you are in playing low tier games there is no point to build a hero like a pro, if your opponents aren't pro.
pro players go for drum cuz it adds dmg, hp, AS and +9 all attributes. it's a great item. but in pub games where you are confident that you can rely only on your positioning, you dont HAVE to go for drums as it will delay your bfury. bfury is more useful on Ember than Drum is, atleast in low tier games. So why would you build something that will not bring too much to the table just because pros do it? Pros do it cause they cant rely only on their positioning cause they will face an equal skilled team, which will exploit their flaws. Thats not going to happen OFTEN in pubs, so if you can rush a bfury its way better for the tier you are playing at.
its like playing ursa on 2k. most pro players buy bkb. but WHY WOULD YOU buy a bkb if in this tier ppl just don't focus you and you can devastate anyone with a shadow blade? so basically i'd have to make a bkb and spend 4k gold for a item that i will not use cuz ppl suck? lol no point at that
the same goes for drum, if you feel that you can do well without with in your bracket, why would you buy it?
because it is only 'working' because his opponents are handicap. He tries to oversimplify stuff saying well it worked for me so it must be right. That logic is like someone asking
"how do I play basketball"
Well you just walk down the court and dunk it in the net. (keep in mind this guy is saying this form the perspective of playing with a 2 foot basketball net in his backyard)
when people ask for help they ask for help fighting competent players not bots
http://dotabuff.com/blog/2014-03-24-a-look-back-on-ember-spirit
uhh the hell
that isnt what i said
but ofc lampson can read :)
but yeah... you're handicapped
we're in the shit tier (4k)
so we might as well use efficient builds rather than going for something that is redundant
it's actually more like this:
you: "im so-next-level, ive watched pro games"
me: "okay... but what works in this shit bracket (as you so call it)?"
me: we're not playing pros vs pros or a tournament where most likely every player is stellar
you telling me that ember is incapable of flash farming and is better off going phase/drums/bottle simply because pros do, doesn't quite cut it.
please... don't even talk about over simplifying :/ you were just tryin to compare pro games to shit tier games as if they were played in the same fashion
SIMPLIFICATION.
yeah and you're not going to fight competent players with just a change in skill build
but i suppose that everyone in "shit tier" knows less or plays less skillfully on every single hero in comparison to the pros.
i suppose that your BH is below scrub level in comparison to the pros.
trying so hard to insult me that you completely neglect any form of a argument. I never once said these pro players only build these items only against other pros. Look at all of their pub matches its the EXACT same shit when they play pubs
Yes my reaction time and my game awareness on BH is nowhere near a pro level and I am not as delusional as most people in the 4-6k range.
and last point, yes you are simplifying it because your only 'evidence' is 'well I played ember a couple games in the potato bracket and I won a couple'
Drums is really good in this hero
well samsung, again i'd like you to take a look at yourself before you say, "completely neglect any form of an argument".
you're not realizing that perhaps PROS are matched with other PROS perhaps a little less skilled but still advanced nonetheless.
there was a guide out there that i agreed with that touched base on people who play aggressive early game, and then failing to take advantage of their map control, i.e. not warding enemy jungle, not ganking + keeping pressure on lanes
this is what happens in what you call, shit tier. now instead of being moronic and following the herd of sheep, play a little bit smarter if you can get away with it and WALAH
oh, how i love your simplifications.
couple = 27
that's the new couple.
samagama is redefining history (;
you won 16 games as ember spirit and you believe that is a large sample size?
you are also under the impression that MM puts pros against pros which again shows you how little you actually know about the game.
I dont know why I bother when you
-Dont know basic ember mechanics
-Dont know basic dota client mechanics
It has nothing to do with 'following the herd' is has to do with seeing what works and what does not work. You cant even maintain a 60% winrate with ember, in what delusional world do you live in to be thinking that it is working.....
i didnt say it was, but it isnt "a couple"
stop being a drama queen fapson
"can't even maintain a 60% winrate"
"you won 16 games with ember spirit and you believe that is a large sample size?"
um... which point are you trying to make?'
one kinda contradicts the other
im pretty sure i can find some posts of yours that would make it blatantly obvious that ur a hypocrite (;
Here's a fun example of an ember dominating my friends' match (sorry guys):
Match 599943380
50k+ hero dmg, largely bc of the meepo on the other team. Could still get 1-shotted by ember when meepo had 3k+ hp
Not sure how to link matchids within the post
that comment was that regardless of where you stand (if a small sample size is valid you are wrong and if a small sample size is not valid you are still wrong)
I have stated many times that you dont need to copy what pros do all the time BUT that does not mean you throw your head in the sand and ignore all evidence.
didnt read any of the posts but just to reply to OP
1 1 4 is ALWAYS the build if you want to gank/help other lanes when ur 6.
1 4 1 is the most useless build ive ever seen in my life, that build is for afk farming cuz u can't solo kill jack shit asides from squishies like sniper or lich
oh and arcane boots is a must at 6, if u go phase ur gona be oom/insufficient mana pool to combo off ur skills etc, transition into phase mid-late game, noobs who go phase are the ppl who pick ember safe lane farm and plays him like am
ignore everything M_K just said.....
@MK1001
At level 6 with no items he'll have 30.8 int. Rounding it down to 30 to be in your favour (since you're arguing his mana pool is too small without Arcanes), that's 390 mana at level 6.
Searing Chains has a static 110 mana cost, SOF has a static 50 mana cost, and Flame Guard's is 80/90/100/110 and Remnant is 150 at all levels.
Using only Q, W and E, his spells cost somewhere between 240 to 270 mana. So with max Flame Guard you'll be short of the mana required to use remnant by 30 mana, which can be solved by either a Bracer or Magic Wand which will give +3 int (39 mana), a Magic Stick with 2 charges, or using a Bottle charge for a little over 1 second, any of these items which are cheaper than Arcane Boots.
Arcane Boots is not required on Ember Spirit in the same way that getting 2 levels of stats on Juggernaut to ult + spin at level 6 is not required, because you are wasting valuable skillpoints or gold for an extremely small timing window that will very quickly pass and you may not even make use of, which will waste your skill points in the case of Juggernaut, or in the case of Ember Spirit, you are wasting 1000 gold to be able to use all your spells that can be solved by other items that are cheaper, and they also don't make you less effective later on (when you have Arcanes instead of Phase later in the game).
If you're getting Arcane Boots so that you can use all your abilities at 6, and then you end up not doing anything before you reach level 7, then there was no point doing so when your passive int gain from levelling up would've given you the mana pool you required without you wasting 1000 gold.
Arcane Boots are not the go-to boots for Ember Spirit. Not saying they can't be gotten, but saying they're "a must" on ES is just plain wrong, since Phase are also a viable option, and also the more common one even at higher levels of Dota. If no one on your team (even the supports) have Arcane Boots, they could be worth getting, but even in that case, Phase can still be the better option.
Maybe you prefer Arcane Boots because mana management is less of a problem, others might not have that problem in the first place, hence why they get Phase for example. Same with Drum of Endurance. Maybe some people like to play with more risk involved but get better rewards (e.g. getting a fast BF might pay off, other times the Drum would've helped more than the Perseverance when you don't have the BF finished yet).
bro nice analyze, i was gonna just do my pub flame cuz most pubs r delusional but since you put so much effort i'll explain to you in a proper manner
yes you are correct, after the usage of all combos u will be short of 30 mana which can be sub by magic wand/bottle etc, now let me tell u why this is a problem
in a mid vs mid, if you want to kill a competent player at mid at lvl 6 +, you will need MORE than 1 rem to kill for SURE, most of the time 2 will do, occasionally 3. Now, without mana boots, you won't have the base mana pool to sustain your combo, AND, lets assume you have phase/wand/bottle, after 1 combo, presumably you kill some noob like sniper mid, you are left with 0 mana, if opp gets rune control at the next even mark, what are you going to do? tp/base for mana? walk to base for mana? afk farm?
The difference between a good ember and a bad ember is their ability to gank and their solo kill ability at mid, i will conclude that ANY ember who thinks sidelane is good are just simple baddies that does not realize the potential of the hero.
Now, let's talk about the price, do you REALIZE how expensive bottle + magic wand is? its 650+ 550 = over 1k, excluding the begining branches, let's say 1k total, when i ember, I almost NEVER go bottle mid because i can farm an arcane in 3-4mins which will solve ALL my mana problems from early-mid game till i have acquired my first bfury. Of course, not everyone can do that, just saying. So if you are bad at 1v1in, then ur going to need to buy those items. You probably should not even play ember if you suck at solo mid in the first place.
For the baddies who go phase drum stick bottle, ignoring phase since i'd be buying mana boots for roughly the same price, that's an additional 650+550+1750=2950 wasted, and for me, those 2950 gold are spent for my 1st bfury which will happen in about 13-17mins depending on the game, but for normal pubs, it'll happen between 20mins+ earliest. And don't gimme that bs about drum stick are for survivability etc, since ember is a hero with 3 insta-blinks, if you are dying then you don't know how to play the hero properly, the hero has a 600 magical dmg absorb with a free radiance at lv 7, FOR THOSE WHO cannot REALIZE.
I've raped countless invokers/qop/puck/ranged heros that ppl say ember can't lane against, its simply false misconception, theres a reason by an imbalanced hero (yes, ember is currently imbalanced), have lower than a 50% win rate in pubs.
Refer to this funny post in the mid sections where the OP points out why a shitty ember loses to invoker
http://dotabuff.com/topics/2014-04-05-my-personal-blog-4k-shitters-galore
Reading this was pretty hilarious thanks guys.
^ IDK why everyone is infatuated with that movie............. mostly my 7/4 year old daughters...... but your stats over any poster on this:
http://dotabuff.com/players/115531677/matches?date=&faction=&hero=ember-spirit&lobby_type=&game_mode=&duration=
Awesome........
Do you ever offlane ember or safe lane or is it always mid?
I just think the way people argue is really funny...
I go mid because I like being high impact midgame. I think bottle is so good on him I would even buy it safelane. Giving charges to your teammates is just so good, plus when you return to your spirit you have time to give 2 free charges. I think people often forget this.
Also I'm not good pls don't call me out haters
@ M_K_1001
I think he meant get a bracer, a wand, or a bottle, rather than two or all three for the chars in his example. Just my understanding of his post.
Bottle crowing solves his mana issues, but in pubs can be unreliable bc side laners, especially supports, love to use the courier to bring one item at a time.
noobs still do not realize bottle does not solve his mana problems, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz give up
u guys should all go bottle/drum/stick cuz my build is way too high level for pubs
Elsa does mention a good point about bottle though, ignoring the bottle cost, its still 2400 which is a shit load of money that went to the drain by getting useless BUT noob friendly items like drum , dont gimme the pros go these items bs, pros get it because its a team item, in pubs u can't rely on your team for the end of the world.
You have to often consider your allies as useless creeps because they literally are, except they feed for 250 gold instead of 45. For example, if you are a high-tier axe playing, after you blink into 5 heros and gets all of them with your call. In your mind :" ok es willl blink ulti and we'll get ez rampage, ez game", then u see the es walking around in circles and fissuring creeps, etc. oh and not to mention the flame afterwards from ur retarded teammates who says you got caught again etc. Hence in pubs it's the best to pick 1v5 heros like sf/storm/ember/void/phx/tb/etc, dont need to give a fuck about your team as long as you rape your lane and help other lanes to rape harder. There is a reason why mid is the most important lane in pubs, u shut down ur mid, have a +2 lvl adv, then proceed to rune control/rape sidelanes + helping noobs to get kills INSTEAD of dying, = infinite + gold + experience and infinite - gold - experience for enemy
Pubs != professional games. Professional games are bounded with near flawless teamwork and communication. Pubs are not.
As for items, minimum 1 bfury with burizas, anything else is trash, ember has the greater carry power than void late game in terms of counter pushing/team kill ability, void has higher 1v1 solo kill ability but thats it. Ember can 1 shot 5 heros easily with the right skill build and the right positioning. It'll take too long to explain so yall have to figure it out urself.
^
[Img]http://imgur.com/2AcmEjr.png[/Img]
additionally, your own performance doesn't seem to reinforce your point
[Img]http://imgur.com/jPLMfJP.png[/Img]
More importantly, these two:
[Img]http://imgur.com/PDlhCf7.png[/Img]
You really think you are a high tier player right ?
Bottle and drums bad items on ember
"noob friendly items like drum , dont gimme the pros go these items bs, pros get it because its a team item"
"ember has the greater carry power than void late game in terms of counter pushing/team kill ability, void has higher 1v1 solo kill ability but thats it."
:DDDDDD
no i do not consider myself as a high tier player, i was just pin pointing the reality in dota pub games
drum is a noob friendly item on ember, only in my opinion, and only for ember cuz it delays ur core items
and yes, ember has greater carry power than void in terms of team fight / game impact potential
nooblet
may I ask why do you sound so arrogant about your ember knowledge
you barely have 55% winrate which is pretty standard
I'm not full of myself like that even when I talk about tinker because I know I'm not even near pro level
@M_K
TC was the person who started the whole arcane boots thing. I spoke to him about it and early when ember spirit first came out he was so sure about the fact that he needed mana boots. When he learned how to play the hero better he realized that mana boots are just a crutch for poor mana management.
HOLY shit I just read M_K newest rant AHAHHAHAAHAH this kid is so delusional its funny
I am pretty sure that the reason why every pro player is getting drums is for the stats, if they wanted the item only for the aura another hero would get it.
Ember does not scale better than spectre medussa or void, hero dies like bitch late game and if you need to get bkb ( enemy is not dumb they will get orchid hex etc ) you will lose damage, and not even pro players can dodge everything with his skills.
You are saying that the hero can dodge any damage with his skills, bullshit, pro players die a lot with him, you die a lot with him too, saying that the hero scales late game because you are going to get 3 or 4 sof in battle is bullshit.
@nobody, cuz i like to troll and deliver meaningful and insightful msgs in a troll fashion, i never bragged about my ember WR etc, i lose cuz i like to troll and play for fun, anyways i rarely post cuz noobs dont understand
@sampson, ok, that's fair, and i do agree that in a real, balanced, team work game that you will not need mana boots. My key point is pubs here. My whole point is mana boots is that the item itself is replaceable with 2950 gold of items, with the ability to kill @6 and sustain mana. If you can tell me the way of killing a full hp competent mid hero at lvl 6 without mana boots, then u can knock urself out. I can confidently say that I can kill almost any solo mid asides from OD(cuz of astral) and invoker(cuz of invis) at lv 6 with mana boots.
I have tried countless builds with ember and I know the flaws of each skill build and item build. Maximizing the efficiency of items and skill build is key in playing all heros, with only phase boots and bottle, usually what most pubs can get at lvl 6, you are not capable of killin a full hp solo mid hero in any way. I usually often have over 5 kills with ember under 10mins, and I have tried doing this with phase/bottle/stick/drum, it's no where nearly as effective, first of all, it delays ur fury by huge, second, you'd have to sell your small items very soon because you don't have space in your inventory.
@dorkly, ur just a noob who i don't even wanna bother replying. Theres a reason why i have near 5 kda with ember in 115 games, u can try to do the same, i'll bow to u if u can do it bra
I'm only replying to sampson as he is pbly the most ignorant dota player on the forums, but at the sametime, who is semi competent at the game, just doesnt realize his flaws
o shit didn't see knight of noob's picture post, bro are u bad at reading, i always transition into phase mid-late game as i get my first fury. zzz nubs r gona remain to be nubs
"pros get it because it's a team item"
Why do they not get Arcane Boots on Ember Spirit then? That's a team item isn't it?
Arcanes give Ember Spirit 100 mana every 55 seconds, equivalent to 1.8 mana per second. Assuming you only get the runes every 2 minutes, Bottle gives you 210 mana every 120 seconds, or 1.75 mana per second, although in some cases, a player may bottle crow, which takes about 40 seconds, but to give the benefit of the doubt, just say bottle crowing takes one minute, which would you 3.5 mana per second, and the difference between the Bottle and Arcane Boots is that you can always be full with Bottle because it restores mana somewhat constantly whereas Arcane restores it in bursts.
Later in the game, especially when you have Battle Fury(s), the 1.8 mana regen per second of Arcanes becomes less and less useful, in fact, negligible. Bottle still has its uses in storing runes, and also shortening fountain trips if you only keep it in the stash.
If Bottle does not solve Ember's mana problems, how is Arcane Boots any different? The increase in pool that Arcanes gives is offset by the fact that Bottle gives you more regeneration and the increase in pool is only relevant when you are at full mana. When you're in lane with half mana waiting for Arcanes to come off cooldown, that 250 mana doesn't do anything at that point.
"u guys should all go bottle/drum/stick cuz my build is way too high level for pubs"
If it is so good, why are professionals not using it? I mean if it's so good that pub players aren't good enough to use it, then it'd only be used at the professional level right?
"noob friendly items"
I could argue that Arcane Boots are noob friendly because of the huge leniency they give in terms of mana management. You don't need to bother with runes, and the mana pool increase allows you to spam all your spells a grand total of once after you leave the fountain at level 6.
"Ember can 1 shot 5 heros easily with the right skill build" That would require items, not the correct skills. By the time you have the items you're already maxed out on skill points. All that is required is Sleight of Fist to be maxed. You could have nothing but SOF, stats and Remnant and it would be "the right skill build" if you had multiple Daedeluses and Battle Furies.
On your previous post, which I only just read now, you said:
"after 1 combo, presumably you kill some noob like sniper mid, you are left with 0 mana, if opp gets rune control at the next even mark, what are you going to do?"
If the opponent gets the next rune, bottle crow. I don't see how you're in any better of a situation if you had Arcane Boots. You're still going to be at low mana, and it's not like the regen from Arcane's will restore you to full. It's 1.8 per second, similar to getting a rune every 2 minutes, and slower and less reliable than bottle crowing.
Lets say with Arcanes you use your full combo and you're now left with 100 mana, and you use the active afterwards. You have 200/700 mana. Then what? That's not enough to do a full combo either, and it'd take you much longer to reach full mana than with a Bottle since you also have to restore the 250 extra mana that the Arcanes gives.
holy shit srry guys im creating a post war here, ok i admit defeat, u all pwn and the conclusion is phase/drum/stick bottle for ember. Go knock yourselfs out bros
~_~
"I can confidently say that I can kill almost any solo mid asides from OD(cuz of astral) and invoker(cuz of invis) at lv 6 with mana boots."
But does that mean you always kill the enemy mid when you're 6 with Arcanes? If not, then you could've still killed the enemy mid with Phase Boots once your int from levelling up got higher.
You're also an advocate of maxing Flame Guard, which requires you to get close to the enemy. If the enemy has enough magic damage to break the shield, or simply physical damage, and your kill attempt ends up not being successful, what do you do to restore health?
Quoting you, "tp/base for mana? walk to base for mana? afk farm?"
How often do you get forced out of lane because you have insufficient health regen? At low health all the mana in the world won't help you last hit.
If you truly believe your way of building ES is right, explain to us how then. Considering your mentality of picking indepdent heroes and not relying on your teammates, I'm inclined to think that you're just delusional of your skill and unwilling to accept advice from others. The people who you are getting paired up with are of a similar skill to you, but somehow you think otherwise.
LOLED SO HARD he should be addaed to those polls from other topic as most funny forum user 10/10 would vote
"1 1 4 is ALWAYS the build if you want to gank/help other lanes when ur 6.
1 4 1 is the most useless build ive ever seen in my life, that build is for afk farming cuz u can't solo kill jack shit asides from squishies like sniper or lich" who the fuck goes 1/4/1
u go 1/4/1 when ur opponent is gettin whipped and u have an 8-10 min bfury
So just because Arcane boots give the mana of a drums, stick and a bottle and they are cheaper, they are way better right? Because let's just forget the stats and aura from drums, burst heal from stick, storing runes by bottle because you know, they don't give enough mana. Also phase gives damage and 24 damage for a 1350 item is even better than a claymore. I have only 1 game with ember and didn't really play him in dota 1 either, but god the fact that you are disaggering to everything but your opinion means you are just a fucking moron.
@MADS ok mby when you have 8 min bf its valid. I was just saying that usual non-flameguard build is smth like 3/3/0 and i think its berger even with bf that fast + depends on situation ofc.
eh... ive been seein a lot of ppl fail with that tho, maybe its not because of the build but positioning... who knows
if its hard i go 1-1-4
if its somewhat normal/easy i go 1-4-2
if its ridic easy just 1-4-1
i havnt seen anyone own with chains as much as with flame guard + fist
i find the 1 sec duration and 20 dmg quite minor in comparison to putting points into stats after W and E are maxed
ive considered leaving my ulti at lvl 1 as well, which would mean @ lvl 16 i would have +14 stats to all
with the drawback of 1 less possible target, 1 second shorter, less magic dmg, (80 instead of 300)
also less remnant dmg but... eh :/ i rarely ever use it for the damage...
i guess the more optimal build for people who probably hate my build, is to just keep chains at lvl 3 (80, 120, 240 - lvl 3) as its the biggest dmg increase, and consider leavin remnant at lvl 1