General DiscussionSo... Someone explain

Dude.
You have played 20 games. Just play more.
You are not high skilled after 20 games. It takes a long time, but you don't need to play pubstompers.

It's getting better with more games, just as everybody would expect.
Don't be that unpatient, bro.

Greetings

I'll Try. =/ I'll use this thread as a note to games where I felt that I had no control over losing the match.

As much as I hate to say it some people will never progress through the brackets. Never focus on one game when you are talking about MM because MM takes the WHOLE picture into account(and you have very few games). There are no 'lesser' roles in dota, some heroes end up with more kills (which is why dotabuff uses k/d/a and not just k/d). There is no real secret you just need to play better

More specifically you need to play well enough that you get into better stacks. You need to get to a point where good players want you on their team and invite you to join their games. If you were already good enough to solo que into high level games you would not need to ask how to do it. So you need to improve.

Have you played much dota 1 or dota 2 before or is this your first account? Knowing how much experience you really have is important to giving you the correct advice for what to work on at this point.

Ive played a little over 300 games, and I still sometimes feel like I have no control over a losing match. Sometimes its just the other team is better, or maybe some mistakes were made that cost you the match. The biggest part of learning is to make mistakes and find out how to fix them. Don't make the mistakes, and learn to take advantage of other mistakes. Also, since you only have 20 games, you're probably still being matched with players that have no idea what they are doing. Give it time. Trust me, you don't want to play in a higher level bracket with only 20 games. You will get eaten alive. It happened to me too, at one time. Lol

Stomp the first few games and you will end up with quite high rating (albeit with high uncertainty as well). Play pubstomp heroes a few games and then go back to playing what ever you want. If that did not work then you probably do not belong in a higher bracket.

I never played a moba before in my life. However I have watched competitive moba play for about 2-3 years. A good friend of mine tried to get me into it but I was really starcraft obsessed at the time.

20 games or not I'm not adverse on EVERY aspect of play, but I feel that I know a decent amount about the game. I know more than the average norm bracket player, however I think I still play like I'm in norm. Greedy, wants the kill to make sick plays and what not. I'm just lacking in judgement making and whatnot. At least I feel that's where my fall out is.

I know heros/builds/abilities and how lanes work with each hero. Trilanes and offlanes. Smoke/lane ganks. Stacks and different pulls for multiple camps. Wards and dewarding. Item progression, and when to value boots (Brown boots endgame item GG) vs wards. However I just find it really difficult in games to actually take something from pro games and apply it. IE. Visage played in a recent Na'vi vs TL game started with Sentry + Clarity. And pooled out wards and consumables. Normally in my games, I'll buy wards (Both sets) if courier is purchased. Sometimes sents + smoke if wards and courier are purchased. Most of the time its Observer + Courier, Tango branch branch Clarity x2.

I mean I think my take on the game is right, I just wish I had a few pointers. I really don't 'Wanna go pro' or 'stomp'. I just want to improve as a player, and it's really hard to learn something from pubs, when you give advice. IE: "hey man, don't block top lane, it's counterproductive", When the response is "Fuck you man CKYA noob 20 games ZZZZ ez".

Edit: This last game as rubick went really well despite the horrible lane comp. Meepo + Rubick vs Viper + DS top side dire, things were rough until BH rotated.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/352888630

Some one want to throw out what I could have done differently that would be better?

@ åäö

I am trying to avoid this, besides it's most likely already too late to stomp out of norm. I'd rather earn myself out of norm giving support to people that will most likely be stuck with 5 man carry teams for the rest of their dota career.

@ Relentless & Sampson

I'm willing to improve and I know I need to, its just hard to figure out exactly what my weak parts are as a player.

You should max Fade Bolt in almost all cases.

@ åäö

I agree. I felt the longer disable time was needed to give meepo proper time to net. I usually do max FB.

Edit : Was this wrong?

Dont copy what you see in competitive dota. I will use example of "dont block top lane" if the other team blocks their creeps and you dont they get full control over where the creeps will be positioned(this happens alot in pubs even in VH). You need to learn how to play the game just like everyone else(I would say you are at a disadvantage because what you learned will hurt you more in pub games then it will help) Reaction time is also alot slower in pubs because communication is slower so playing a tournament style support will just end with you feeding. Your best bet is to watch streamers in pubs rather than tournament games if your goal is to improve in pubs

Go create a new account, make sure you win the first few games in huge kda, so don't play support.
If you see some sniper pickers in your team, shutdown dota and dodge the game.
About that tutorial thing, google you find a way to go round it.

Happy smurfing !

If you want to employ pro game tactics and succeed then you have to be playing in matches where everyone is at least close enough to pro that they know those things and are fast enough to use them.

As Sampson points out...many things pros do pubs cannot because they just are physically unable to click quickly and accurately enough to make them work. Another whole group of pro tactics cannot be done in pub games because the coordination they require is impossible with strangers.

In the same way, the tactics that work brilliantly for low level pubs totally fail in high level pub games. You have so few games it is hard to see any patterns yet from stats. I will watch a replay.

Thanks, more so than anyone normally offers. TL forums are pretty shit for finding any useful help.

Oh and please ignore that Io game. It was going badly, and I am a troll.

also take into account how old dota is, personally I have been playing dota for almost a decade and I know alot of other players who are in the same boat and it is highly unrealistic to just jump in and be able to "play with the big boys" in 20 games

@ Sampson

I don't feel I belong in VH bracket. Maybe not even High. I'm just looking for ways to basically improve my game play and how I can progress further as a player. I'm just wondering what mistakes I am making as a player, because I am a really bad critic of myself.

lmao 20 games

the best way to improve is look over your games you LOST (it is much easier to catch mistakes). What I like to do is watch a match from my opponents perspectives and see how and why they took advantage of my mistakes

Seriously you looks fine, learn some carry hero, have fun !
I assure you are better than drow in this game lol
http://dotabuff.com/matches/352961706

My plan for the time whenever I decide I no longer belong to normal bracket and want to get into high:

1) know all supports
2) pick Balanar or other support/squisy-eater (I like Balanar, couse he's blue and not that ugly than other pubstomps but whatever works for you)
3) eat all squiesies/supports, easy couse you know what they can do
4) start picking supports again when I start losing couse that means I got to my prefered mmr

Pretty sure something has changed. Don't know if I'm just getting lucky or actual bracket shift. Past few games have had a few successful trilanes which is very rare, atleast in norm. Ah, also.

Language barrier. You ruin my games. SK, use your ult, then blink/strike in. Not walk in the middle of farmed PA and friends and start attempting to channel.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/352965703

I wouldn't say I had zero control over the loss, as I did extend a bit, however... I felt that the carries/mid were not doing their job well.
For anyone that watches. I get first blood with Kotl. Sick jukes, suck it Mirana.

with as many mistakes that people make in the normal bracket there is ALOT of control you can have over a win/loss. You really need to stop thinking you are better than your teammates because it will really hinder your improvement

I don't think I'm better than anyone... Sorry if it's coming off like that. I just need help point out where I am making mistakes or what I should have done not because I think I don't make mistakes, just because I over look my own flaws or don't see them.

If someone is willing to spend the time and give me some general tips and throw out "In X game you did Y when you should have done Z" I'd be more than happy to throw something their way as far as value goes. Just give me 15 days for the Steam guard to clear, so I can trade. Assuming this thread lasts that long.

TL:DR - [H]Keys/RR [W] Coaching from decent bracket/WR

You already have Watamote avatar, seems like you're on the way to success.

As for suggestion- go to live games (dota2 client) and search for your favorite hero: "eg: Templar Assassin," then click on whoever plays her on the 1st page.
Watch him from player perspective mode, you will learn a lot and will dominate your skill bracket, eventually you'll be too good and your MMR will increase.

No wonder you're successful. Yuno would kill anything that stopped her from Dota.

I like wards too.

When watching someone play from player perspective pay attention to small things and watch minimap from time to time.

eg: Nature Prophet checking for portal scrolls on the opponents before pushing a lane.

Thanks Avidity. I suppose I have some homework to do.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/353043258

Another game I felt I had no control over. Alch free farms for 20 min. Tranquils > Aquila > Midas.... Wait... what? No ac/Bkb vs Naix on other team.

Pudge feeds mid vs invoker. Proceeds to finish boots (phase) at 35 minutes.

I Like wards QQ thread is established.

How can you even think about game control while playing a support, go for antimage

Supports have many forms of control, but the carries have to do their jobs too. Not really a fan of Am. Right clicks bore me, and I'm no Xboct who farms for 18-20 min, kk guys im ready to teamfight after yasha...lol.

@Tomoko

You're doing REALLY well for the amount of games you have played.
Even though you recently started playing Dota2 you're getting matched against people with 600+ games. (Others were smurf accounts)

http://dotabuff.com/players/124002328

You're much better than you give yourself credit for, keep it up and continue on improving. ^^

You're already playing in VERY HIGH BRACKET!

Lets look at Shandow Shaman.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/352926027

You start safelane. You should get Sentries. Offlane needs the obs, you need sentries. Because you did not get sentries to deward your pull was blocked and controlling the lane and getting enough xp became nearly impossible.

Clockwerk did a terrible job blocking the pull. He was very late and obvious about it. It should have been easy to deward. Also you are holding an obs ward...since you have it at least use it to put in a lane ward so you can see where clock is standing and know when to attack him.

At 2:15 you buy a tp scroll...what you really need is sentry wards to deward that pull camp.

2:30 good rotation to deny that regen rune. QoP is forced to kill herself on nuetrals to get out.

3:50 you could buy sentries...that ward block is still going to cost you up to 700 gold and 3 levels of xp if you knew how to pull through correctly...pay the 200 for sentries and remove it. You said you knew how to pull...but probably you have only practiced doing it when no one is trying to stop you. Learn what to do when there is opposition. Its possible to put a lot more effort and cleverness into stopping a pull a lot more ways than this clock did. You need to be ready to recognize these things and counter them asap.

5:06 fail gank on clock...this happens because you did not deward. He can see you coming a mile away and easily backs up in time.

6:31 you cancelled your own shackles. Its a channeling spell you can't issue more commands. You should get 1 point in shackle and then max Ether shock, max hex after ether shock. Ether shock is a powerful nuke early. That is when you want to use it...later it's only good for pushing. Unless the enemy is bad, your shackle is nearly always going to be interrupted and level 1 is already a 2.5 sec disable. What you will need in mid-game team fights is a leveled up hex so you can hex 1 and shackle a 2nd hero...or hex, then ward trap, then shackle if you have your ult up. Low levels of hex don't work well for this, but 1 point in shackle is enough.

Whenever you fight, the order should be hex-shock-wards-shackle-shock if you have the mana...or just hex-wards if you think you will instantly die as Shaman often does. If you do it this way and succeed, you can do a 2nd Ether shock as soon at shackle ends. This is an extremely powerful combo mid-game that will kill basically any hero from full health if you execute it correctly.

6:00 whenever you have ward vision of a rune and the 2 min rune time clicks you should be looking at it to see what and where the rune is. You have an obs ward and your rune ward is about to expire...go secure the rune and replace the ward. It happens to spawn top, but you should be going anyway before the time so you are ready.

7:06 SS range for his skills is rather short. You can't disable over cogs. You need to know this and not try. You hit yourself twice trying to do it.

8 min, stop attacking the same player from exactly the same direction. You could go through the secret shop with a tango and attack from the right side. It would be easier and less expected. Clockwork dies to luna anyway because he is bad.

9:20 do not port out to lanes unless something is about to happen. Walk out, save the tp for an emergency. If you walk out to the lane and find you are needed in different lane, no problem just tp. If you tp out and find you are needed elsewhere....well now you are screwed you already used it. If as you are walking out halfway then something happens and you need to be there sooner...no problem you still have the tp. If you use it and then stand around for 10 seconds...bad. It is almost always the wrong time to use a tp scroll. The right time is very short and hard to learn to correctly identify. for now try to err on the side of not using it because it is almost always the wrong time to do it. I really think its best for most nubs to not even get one, because nearly every tp scroll is used to do something badly...usually it causes them to feed. So maybe don't get one if you find you can't stop yourself from using it. That item slot could hold something much easier to use correctly like a salve, a dust, or even just some stats.

12 min very good. You were ready to get the haste, they were not.

13 min baiting your carry into death instead of taking the tower with your ult...very bad. You should have died too, but clockwerk sucks so you lived.

14 min urn, obs, and smoke, good item choices for SShaman.

14:30 is this Luna your friend or did she just share control for stacking because she is that pro? Luna is far better than everyone else on both teams. Her hero control and decisions are on an entirely different level. If she is not your friend add her. Maybe she liked you supporting and will play more games with you.

15:54 when you stack its best to try to go for the early end of the window, that way when you mess up you can still try again. Click to attack at about 51.5 seconds. When you have a big stack or range creeps that will not start moving right away go another second sooner. The window for them to start moving is about 52 to 55 seconds. Your attack has to travel and they have to react; this takes time. If you arrive 1 sec early to stack...np just wait. If you arrive 1 sec late to stack, fail. So be early. If you accidentally hit the creeps before the beginning of the window, np you will take a little more dmg before walking and the stack will still work. If you hit the creeps slightly after the end of the window, fail. Err on the side of attacking early. Your attack should hit them between that start of second 52 and the end of the 54th second to get them to walk out correctly. For melee that means reaching your attack point...not finishing the animation if you want to be picky about it. You can pull with melee attacks without actually hitting them, this can save dmg. Also you didn't send the bear far enough away so it almost died. Luna just saved it.

15:52, gj seeing the the creep will die and doing the stack yourself...plus you got the timing right. Send that creep back to the fountain to heal. Why leave it there with no hp?

16:45 good positioning. This lets you stay close for possible fights and take some xp, but does not make it obvious that you are there.

17:40 you died because you did not get sentries and deward. A well placed sentry could have shown if they were watching the Ancient stack and allowed you to kill riki for free as a bonus while protecting Luna's farm at the same time. You were getting dust. Dust is for teamfights when you don't know where they will happen or ganking an invis hero that is farming. Sentries are for controlling an area. You needed sentries.

The fight at 19:40 is a good example of why you need to use skill in the order I explained earlier and what happens when you don't.

20:30 GJ reconizing you would only feed defending the T1 with no mana...Don't stay out as a support with no mana and no mana regen. As a support mana is more important than hp. You could have 2 hp and still get a lot done with full mana on SShaman if you are fast...if you have no mana you are worthless. In this case your team has 2 arcane boots so staying and hiding was the right move.

21:19 you smoke and head for the correct target. But your team goes the other way...don't worry about their mistake. Its better to be together roaming than going different ways.

22 min totally wrong skill order again, bad results no surprise. You spent everything and only got the easiest kill. 3 were possible.
Also your max level shackle did 190 magic dmg to 1 hero. Max level ether shock would have done 320 dmg to 3 heroes. Max Ether shock not shackle. If you managed mana correctly it was possible to kill all 3 of them with two Ether shocks and better ward trap. Because you played the fight wrong tree and medusa Chickened out instead of killing them all. If you are going to get treads remember to switch them to Int when you are going to cast and Agi when you are going to heal or receive mana from arcanes so you get the full value. They are not worth getting on SShamen just for the extra hp...if you are not going to swtich them get phase or arcanes or tranquils. Would you get Arcanes and never use the mana restore? or Tranquils and never use the active heal or Phase boots and never phase for speed? BoT and never teleport? Toggling treads is the same thing. If you just want stats and speed keep the brown boots and gets drums...at least those still give an aura if you forget to use the active.

24 min good stack and ward...no deward...so they saw you do it. But it probably doesn't matter much since the enemy is too bad to gank correctly.

25:40 you get dewarded...really the sentry already saw that for a full minute back when you placed...but they took forever to rotate. If you had placed a sentry you could have dewarded right away.

26 min fight clockwork feeds. You use the wrong skill order...ends up not mattering since the other teams does nearly everything wrong in the fight.

27:30 much better warding

28:30 clockwork rage quits and abandons everyone follows gg.

You did a lot right this game. But you still have a lot of room to improve. Shadow Shaman is hard to learn and very difficult to execute. Pro teams tend not to pick him because even though his skills are very powerful they are also very hard to execute. At high levels his low cast range and slow move speed means he must get a blink dagger. I play a lot of SShaman. But usually my opponents are not good enough to require a blink. For pubs you usually don't need one though it can be fun.

@ Relentless, thanks. This is exactly what I needed. I'll have a friend add you and give you a Key for the effort you put into this. (Give me 24~ hours for him to get on arrange things what not. I'll edit this post with his name when that happens.)

Edit : He added, just accept whenever~ Thanks for the help.

Everyone is so helpful to Tomoko!

Bahaha. Just watched a game from a friend.

Medusa attempted ancient farming. 0-2 @ 5 minutes.
0-5 @ 20 minutes. Completes hand of midas.
25~ Treads. 0-7.

End game 39 min 0-11-0

It doesnt matter if you're still in normal tier, if you do decently for like 5-6 games youll move up, i queued normal for like my first 100 games

Updated @ Relentless

Do you have any more games that you need analyzed?

Tomorrow I'll post a few more, I think Imma stay on osu for a bit. I've dropped some rank on that game and I need to get back to where I was. 10.7k out of 3.6M too stronk. Inactive 48 hours? Lose 1k Rank.

I envy the fact that you actually knew what you were doing when you started playing for the first time. I remember when I built S&Y on every bloody hero in doto1. No wonder I sucked balls when I began playing 2. Having a good start is key.

Also, be proud, because some people don't take the "I want to improve" approach so early, if at all. In my case, I started actively "improve" my doto after 370~ games. It certainly didn't help my rating, I can tell you that. Simply put, if you try to improve yourself and don't stick to the "my teammates fucked up the game" idea, you'll definitely get better.

i love relentless reviews, always so detailed and pleasent to read :)

"You're doing REALLY well for the amount of games you have played.
Even though you recently started playing Dota2 you're getting matched against people with 600+ games. (Others were smurf accounts)

http://dotabuff.com/players/124002328

You're much better than you give yourself credit for, keep it up and continue on improving. ^^

You're already playing in VERY HIGH BRACKET!"

no he is not :P

while you only seem to focus on your team making mistakes your opponents are making TONS that you can take advantage of. I would do a game analysis but Relentless is much nicer than me so I will let me do it lol

@Sampson

His last game was in very high bracket, check it yourself.

Most of his games are very high/high.

no he got qued into a player who has played in VH (there is multiple was for this to occur I am too lazy to research the exact reason)

http://dotabuff.com/matches/307584916

I got pushed down to normal for 1 match because I was helping some new friends, it does not mean everyone in the game is now playing in the Very High bracket because I am in the game

@Sampson

I know what you mean, that is not the case.

His last 7 games were all in very high bracket, check it for yourself.

Keep in mind that very high bracket pool has been increased from 3% to about 15% after API was removed.

where exactly are u finding this from?

Few minutes of going through recent games, while playing HearthStone like a boss.

Just because a player who played in VH is in the game does not mean it is a VH game

I don't know what the bounds for High and Very High are anymore. It seems that Very High has been extended to include what High used to cover and High is maybe anyone above average...but I'm still getting such inconsistent results its hard to be certain.

It's possible he is getting into some Very High games given the new definition.