I was basically making fun of your comment. Your comment basically implied if he was strong, he would be picked competitively. Can someone not infer from this that you're basically saying anything strong would be used competitively? If thats what it means then dozens of heroes should be buffed.
A CM game is worlds apart from AP. If you'd had read what I said, you'd see this; "The only reason he doesn't see competitive play is because of the meta of 3-1-1. SB is strongest in 2-1-2 which is the general format of pubs. Even then, he still gets picked by some competitive teams! Why? Because his skillset is strong enough they decide its worth it despite him not suiting a tri."
Thank for showing how you merely glimpse through the arguments I thought about.
"You are stating he's OP, that means overpowered. If he was overpowered then he would be picked or banned all the time in the pro scene, where people play for money and don't fuck around, whatever it takes to win etc."
I dont agree. If you are saying that a hero can only be OP if he is on the pro scene what you are doing is ignoring the rest of the entire game. We cant consider only pro games to balance a game.
Maybe he is not picked because he doesnt fit well in the meta or in the way that the game is played right now on the pro scene. Maybe because there is no way to lane him on a pro game.
The way i think heroes should be balanced is analyzing his skill set, his stats grow, base damage, etc... So no hero must be best than X and no hero must be worst than Y. You can easily say that a hero is op by numbers.
And again All pick is not the same than captans mode.
If everyone knows that Batrider is OP then why is there 0 threads about people complaining about him? Right, because he is rarely picked in pubs. That hero actually takes skill to play and is a better ganker/laner/farmer and even late gamer than SB. But no. Better let me complain about SB because I see him in every game and he kicks ass. Meanwhile I don't even know what Batrider is because I don't see him at all. Also yes, all heroes that are not competitively picked have a reason behind them not getting picked therefore means there is a thing that counters them or makes them bad. This is definitely true for SB as well but you are don't wanna accept it. I gave you a couple of reasons why he wouldn't be OP but in turn you just flamed me. And yes, I called you a "low level" pub player. And isn't this true? Are you on very high bracket? If so you should have known there is no such thing as a hero that is "uncounterable".
Good dual lane will easily shut down SB + anything.
Don't get out of position and SB will be rendered useless. He is not OP at all, yet he can and WILL punish you for getting out of position and not having map control.
"If so you should have known there is no such thing as a hero that is "uncounterable".
Didnt you just called lifestealer and batrider OP ?
"all heroes that are not competitively picked have a reason behind them not getting picked"
Yes
"therefore means there is a thing that counters them or makes them bad."
No
Icefrog its not god. He will make mistake. He will create heroes with no counters. He will do shit overall .... and that its the reason why everyone should always complain if they dont like/ dont agree/ or thinks that a hero is OP and give they arguments.
A game should always be perfect balance, no bad hero, no op hero. That is what every game aim for.
And i still say that numbers prove him being OP.
What will probably happen is that he will get a strenght nerf, or bash will not proc on charge.
OP = hard to counter. Lifestealer has counters. So does Batrider and Wisp. But countering them might even make you change your strategy because countering them is generally very hard. But a simple 5-man push strat counters SB to the point where he can't even do shit.
These are applicable to every hero. They are not 'counters'. Having a team with lots of disables doesn't mean you 'countered' the enemy lineup. Counterganking is not a 'counter'. It is a method of playing. If you were an SB and you know your game is at a level where there will be wards, will you blind charge through runes/rivers? Would you not smoke?
I argued and discussed whatever you brought up whereas you simply IGNORED mine. And isn't what you just said benefiting me? To own at SB, you don't need much skill. Isn't that essentially saying everything about him? Batrider got nerfed numerous times when people started calling him OP until he's reached a level people don't whine about anymore. Yes dozens of people whined about him and yes, he was nerfed.
How are buffs and nerfs decided anyway?
They are decided by the public. Yes, the public. Through both pubs and competitive play, feedback and data regarding heroes are obtained. Plenty of heroes received nerfs even though 'counters' existed to them. Invoker got his damage nerfed, Lycan with his wolves... Its not as if these heroes were instant win but they got nerfed because the general consensus of the public was that they were too strong. The game exists for all the players. SB is currently stomping constantly and like you said, he doesn't even need skill to play.
Just because you play 3-1-1 where SB is weaker or simply amongst the players who feel SB is not overpowered, does not mean he isn't. A vast majority of players play casually in 2-1-2 with generally loose lineups instead of strict 2 supports and etc. If all it takes for a unskilled player to own is to pick SB, then yes, SB is overpowered.
And yes; I play primarily in Very High unless I stack with my friends.
Okay looks like we will have to do it with a replay. http://dotabuff.com/matches/338746529 check this game and you will see how easy it is to win against SB even when he has a Wisp Ursa in his team. Because you clearly had bad moments against him.
I just want to say, not everything revolves around competitive play.
Thats why heroes like Pudge exist. They are meant to be played for fun, and he is played for fun. The most picked hero in fact. However, a Pudge in any high level game where you go with a full proper lineup and 3-1-1 is just dooming yourself. Does that mean Pudge should be reworked or buffed? Because he's so disadvantaged in a proper game?
No.
AP is AP, CM is CM. 2-1-2 is most played and casual style. He owns 2-1-2. He should be nerfed. Thats all. Arguing against that is basically saying all nerfs to previously popular pub heroes like Lycan should be revoked as they were wrong.
If you think that way, you will make all the people that pick the hero because they have fun stomping other people make sad if you nerf SB. So he shouldn't be nerfed right? He has a lot of pickers and they pick him because they like him the way he is.
Ignoring the rest of my post as usual, not surprised.
There have been plenty of threads on this forum and others regarding SB being OP. Why would someone think a hero is OP? Because he/she saw that hero owning with relative ease without relying on much skill. That last comment of yours is like a little child insisting another is wrong with no valid reasoning.
You clearly don't care about my opinions so I'm not going to bother anymore.
EDIT: According to your retard logic, 1 person has fun at the expense of many. Henceforth you just owned yourself.
No cons? Try looking at his skills. He has two single target disables and two passives. Once you avoid his ganks he is useless because all he can contribute to team fights is two mediocre disables and some magic damage. He's a lot like AM, PL, or really any hard carry but in reverse . The fact that you can't just ignore that he exists doesn't make him OP. ES isn't OP because he can chain disable a whole team. Wanna know why? Because it's up to the other team to see an ES on the enemy team and play accordingly. If people like the OP made DoTA then every hero would have the exact same stats and abilities because god forbid that you should actually have to think about how to stop the specific mechanic that any one hero in based around. If the other team has a bat rider you don't go too far forward so you avoid getting pulled into the enemy team. Against a AM you put pressure on him early game. Against a pudge you stay behind creeps to avoid getting hooked under tower. Against a SB you put down wards and trust me one charge you have to cancel as SB puts you way behind becuse it means your lane is weaker and now you only have your ultimate for disable and you're out of position. Once you can't safely gank as SB you have no late game team fight viability and are basically food for the enemy team. He's worse than Storm as a ganker and only is effective if the enemy team has no vision anywhere along the path of your charge and never reacts when you're missing. Yeah super OP.
Snowman ^: The problem then lies with where valve/froggy want the game to be balanced. As dota 2 was started as a competitive game, with teams and competitions in mind from the start, doesn't that mean it should be balanced for such? So what if SB is op in pubs, the game isn't designed for public, non team based play. If Bara is rarely picked in the mode for which this game is designed, doesn't that mean he needs a buff?
You're thinking in terms of OP as someone who just rapes everything. Also, you assume the SB is a noob. Like I said, place yourselves in the shoes of the SB.
He doesn't need to be fed to rape you though. Really he just needs treads and already he can charge you from anywhere on the map and kill half the heroes in the game easily, his base stats are incredibly high, and his combo hurts a fuckton. Try to imagine that with good allies as well, you know, that gank with him?
He just needs a BKB and continues to bull doze that hero around while playing as a #3-4.
If you need to use Hex on a hero that is playing such a low role and hasn't had much farm priority, then you know something is wrong with the hero. What are you going to do about the the Na'ix/Luna/PL/Puck/QoP/OD/TA that is wrecking your team?
Its very hard to play against a hero with such movement that requires very little farm, is insanely fast, hurts a fuckton and disables a lot while playing as a #3/4.
@Monkeh, thats essentially saying a ton of heroes need buffs/reworking for them to start entering the meta. Face it, heroes are not tuned with just the competitive scene in mind. Techies/Pudge would not exist and etc and etc.
Also, that means all his nerfs on popular pub heroes like Drow, Lycan and etc were him being wrong? Are you saying that?
Well drow was never even in cm mode until she got nerfed. I think Lycan was used a lot in cm before his nerf. Basically I don't know. I'm far from even a good player, nevermind pro, so wtf do I know.
Personally I feel the game should be balanced for the team version of the game and pubs can make do. Lich is strong in ap but was never picked in cm due to the randomness of his amazing ulti. What happens? 7 bounces turns into 10.
Like I said, I'm far from good enough or knowledgeable enough to have this conversation really, it's nice to talk though huh?
I like discussing so as the discussion remains fun, I mean we both like the game yeah?
Lycan was used situationally in CM, not frequently.
Some heroes just don't fit in different modes, simply because they are played differently. Wisp is somewhat of a shitty hero in pub because he needs coordination and teamplay whereas Slark shines more in pubs because of pickoff and snowballing. Currently, SB doesn't fit the meta. Buffing him is out of the question meaning he'll only enter the meta if it changes or if he gets a rework. However, he's just too strong for casual games. He works too well against too many heroes in too many situations.
I already did the maths on his combo and you still say it hurts a fuckton. Also yes, all SB players are generally bad because they are in the mind set of "dude i can't play anything else so I will just pick SB and hope to own some noobs" and pros generally have fun playing skill heroes like Puck and QoP rather than those unskill right click heroes. Also he doesn't require very little farm. If you want him to have the slightest late game impact you need a shit ton of farm on him. Also this thread is just a kid raging about a hero that doesn't have a point because we all know Icefrog won't come here and read this.
Also what's so wrong about using hex on a 3 role hero? If you ever watch pro games you will see Batrider's almost always lasso the support first so that the fight can be 4v5.
Every hero that is a little bit more powerful than others needs a nerf.
Every hero that is a little bit usuless than the others needs a buff.
There shall be a perfect balance on heroes.
So there is my opinion.
Sam you must be a lucky person. You dont know the felling of getting 4 or 5 times bashed. ( something like 6 or 7 second perma disabled ). This must be the case here ..... you math didnt count autoatacks and the usually perma bash.
nobody plays tree, cause he's a boring hero, at least in pubs, people like to see big numbers and shit, i'm not saying that sb doesn't have a boring gameplay, it's just like tree just sits in the jungle for the 10 first minutes, doing nothing else than healing heroes and towers, whereas, if you're playing spirit breaker, you go and charge shit, you see some action.
He has the highest winrate, incredibly high base armor and base strength, along with high base damage.
It is not only, that he can solo most heros with ease. It is how simple he can setup ganks with mates. They see the Sb exactly, and the enemy has often no clue.
Ofc if you have a sb on team, that charges from top to botlane, everybody will see him. A smart SB will just sit half a screen away to charge. His midgamepresence is amazing.
I personally agree, that he is a little too strong for pubs. Esp the fact that in higher matchmaking tiers his winratio increases, this seems to be true.
He is a pain in the ass counter for many common pubheros. How often you have someone going SF firstpick for mid?
This SF will have a painfull time against sb. Only very decent supports will save this sf from feeding. This applies to many midheros. This lead to next problem: In soloque decent supports are sometimes hard to find.
Also sb has clearly some cons.
- He is a waste on a trilane. This space could be better filled with LS/Alche/Cancerlancer
- He sucks midlane
- He sucks offlane
So laning him means, relying on him snowballing. if you can stop him from snowballing, he is a waste in every aspect. He just soaked the farm from safelane and contributes nothing.
Also alot of heros just fuck him up. Any singletarget stun with low casting animation or hex, will do the job. Just get a slardar and let him charge you. Stun before he hits the bash, cast ult on him, and beat the crap out of him. Same for clockwork, or juggernaut.
Just spin before he arrives and use ult. A lion can hex him, before he arrives.
He is too strong in pubs, cause pubplayers tend to pick bullshit.
Heros that can deal with SB:
- Clock, Slardar, Sandking, CM, Lion, Rhasta, Naga, Batrider, Void (with chrono), CK (once he gets ulti on time), Invoker (coldsnap), Puck, ogre
- Items: Euls, Hex
Ofc if you go mort, lich, antimage, sniper, sf he will bang you in the ass.
He is a situational hero that works well against many common pubpicks.
First of all, in all honesty, even if Sam seems to have a big ego or whatever, all his posts make sense. The only one not making sense is op. @Dorkly, you want to be on the fence by trying to be nice and all but you make no sense either. Sam said that bat and naix are op and you assumed that he meant they are uncounterable wtf?
@Sam, I agree especially with what you said about SB being really out of place in the laning stage. The only situation I see him in is in a safelane carry and dominate midgame hard so that lategame is relatively easy. The problem with this is that ofc you're wasting his early potential (high base str etc) The other time I can see Sb is in a support role / roam. But this role is kinda iffy in a sense that getting the levels is hard. SB really need levels.
@op, I know you said that 2 support tp to prevent sb gank or w/e is not consider a counter. You also said that stuns are not consider a counter. The truth is, that is part of dota 2. Stuns are created for situations like these. For ganks, counter ganks etc. You're looking for a specific hero that counters SB. That is not realistic. Not every hero in dota2 have a specific hero that counters another hero. Sure SB has a high base str in the early stage, take note of that and adjust your gameplay towards that. Have a 2 man support tp to help mid if he ganks mid or whatever. SB potential decreases drastically as soon as the game reaches midgame. Just 5-man dota and all will be better. I'm not saying that SB is not OP. I agree he is strong but not to the point as you portray him to be. He sucks in the laning stage in the sense of what role he plays in.
Sorry if you dont understand what I want to say, my english isn't that good
No, I do get what you're trying to say. Sam has pointed out several times how unless its a really squishy hero, a non-snowballing SB can't just charge in and get a free kill, not unless he gets unbelievably lucky with bashes. Cross map bashes can be countered as well by map awareness + wards or teleporting to countergank.
However, this basically assuming the SB operates alone or is inadequate in skill. It is very easy to avoid wards with teleports to position charges or simply smoking. As powerful as counterganks are, they can be dealt with, no? Unless that SB is a noob, which most people who play him are, its easy to escape as vision is granted of the target. Unless you unfortunately bump into multiple heroes who were already there, counterganks mean little to him. Counterganking is not omnipotent. Thats like saying Puck or QoP are not strong gankers. And they can't move around as far as he can or disable as well.
You pointed how SB weakens lategame, and I'm happily pointing out it does not. The ability to shutdown a carry with BKB is very powerful, especially when the hero doing so is tanky and his ulti makes him invulnerable. Let me rephrase what I said earlier. SB if properly played, is done so as a #4. If he ever gets items, its due to snowballing kills but the thing is, he doesn't need them; because charge lets him stay at the back and yet join the fight quickly. Because his ulti makes him invulnerable. How many #4 heroes can do what he can? He's strong. Stronger than other heroes. That means he needs a nerf.
I'm merely pointing out for the way pubs are played, he is too strong. So we've got a hero that doesn't fit competitively but is too strong in normal games. Does that not mean the hero needs a nerf/rework?
I mentioned quite a few times how many popular pub heroes got nerfed.
Lycan.
Invoker.
Drow.
So unless anyone can argue to me that these heroes deserved to be nerfed when they had obvious counters, then shutup about SB not needing a nerf. Because means to stop a hero exist, do not mean that hero is not overpowered. SB is just too versatile and thus needs a bloody god damn nerf.
I wrote like 1.000 arguments here on my first posts. if you have not noticed the ones here who are completely ignoring arguments are the ones defending the hero. And the only argument that they repeat over and over and over again is that he is not picked in CM.
I am just tired to argue with people when they dont argument well and only the same thing over and over again.
Snowman already counter argumented everything that Sam said. Counter ganks, stuns, wards, etc ..... if the SB is on the same level of his enemies he will gank successfully.
The thing is not his burst potential ... but his stun lock potential.
"Esp the fact that in higher matchmaking tiers his winratio increases, this seems to be true."
The fun stuff here is that he stomps not only on low level pubs.
"He is a situational hero that works well against many common pubpicks."
The thing is, heroes like sniper drow etc can be played if you are good in positioning, but it doesnt matter if the enemy team has a spirit breaker because he has the best way in this game to close the gap. Blink heroes have a range limit, heroes like clock depends on a skill shot, but spirit breaker only needs to press a button and he will get in meele range with no problem. A charge and a ulti will probably rape any squishy hero. In this case it just doesnt matter the positioning.
A hero that counters 90 % of the other heroes in this game .... how can this be normal ?
"Also alot of heros just fuck him up. Any singletarget stun with low casting animation or hex, will do the job. Just get a slardar and let him charge you. Stun before he hits the bash, cast ult on him, and beat the crap out of him. Same for clockwork, or juggernaut.
Just spin before he arrives and use ult. A lion can hex him, before he arrives."
The charge speed is pretty fast so is not that easy to stun him before he arrives. And if he charges on a good angle he will initiate by the trees so its not posible to stun him.
Look at this way, if you nerf SB in ALL the following ways;
1. Lower base damage to by 12 to 57.
2. Lower starting strength by 2 to 27.
3. Charge now has a cancellation penalty of 100 second cd. If charge connects, CD is as usual.
Do you think this will make the hero unplayable or majorly weak? No.
Now imagine if you nerf Shadow Demon in ONE of the following ways;
1. Lower disruption duration by 0.25 seconds.
OR
2. Lower purge duration by 0.5 seconds.
OR
3. Lower base damage by 5.
A single one of these nerfs of SD and you'll see it it spark plenty of debate on how SD is about to spiral down to shit tier and see less competitive play.
You get what I'm saying? If multiple nerfs to a hero do not destroy a heros effectiveness, then it is a sign the hero needed a nerf in the first place.
Invoker was Tier 1 but Lycan...? He was arguably a situational Tier 3 hero. I'd like to repeat my argument again, did picking this heroes mean you would instant win the game? NO. They could be countered and had their flaws and yet they got nerfed. Contradictory, eh? Overpowered does not mean a hero cannot be stopped. Stop saying SB is not overpowered because of the flimsy little 'counters' out there to merely stop 1 of his skills.
Yes. If you nerf SB in all those ways you would completely destroy the hero. There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance.
Oh you mean those insane level 1/2/3 ganks over the entire fucking map eh? But then lets bring up what all the pros have said anyway, that these retarded charges shouldn't even matter if a team is coordinated. Then what? Having lesser 50 hp destroys him in lane? Woah. Crazy. Lower crazy high base damage to idk a somewhat ABOVE average base damage?
Maybe less permenant charging everywhere conquering map control for ANY ENEMY hero that pushes out in less than a group of 3. You have any idea how much map control you get when you're able to zoom around with a skill cd shorter than a minute?
Before anyone can come to any agreement on this, I think we need to define why SB is so strong.
Other heroes are general countered with picks and lanes, and late game team fight positioning. SB is one of the few heroes, like Pudge, that FORCES you to adapt your whole play style. You HAVE to have wards, you HAVE to TP to your allies in need, ans you HAVE to be aware at all times against a SB. What makes this different from a normal hero in a good gankers hands is that any retard with SB can punish pubs for being pubs. With no skill, he can be laned anywhere, solo kill with no items, and rampage with items. To me, at this level, that makes him OP.
To everyone asking why he isn't picked in pro games while considered OP, it's because by default play in a way that counters him. He's not on THEIR meta, but that doesn't mean he isn't an absurd hero. I don't even try and I win with him, and I never feel like it's a deserved win.
Because if you'd read you'd get it.
I was basically making fun of your comment. Your comment basically implied if he was strong, he would be picked competitively. Can someone not infer from this that you're basically saying anything strong would be used competitively? If thats what it means then dozens of heroes should be buffed.
A CM game is worlds apart from AP. If you'd had read what I said, you'd see this; "The only reason he doesn't see competitive play is because of the meta of 3-1-1. SB is strongest in 2-1-2 which is the general format of pubs. Even then, he still gets picked by some competitive teams! Why? Because his skillset is strong enough they decide its worth it despite him not suiting a tri."
Thank for showing how you merely glimpse through the arguments I thought about.
Pick Invoker, he strikes fear into SB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmPIbzwlvsA
"You are stating he's OP, that means overpowered. If he was overpowered then he would be picked or banned all the time in the pro scene, where people play for money and don't fuck around, whatever it takes to win etc."
I dont agree. If you are saying that a hero can only be OP if he is on the pro scene what you are doing is ignoring the rest of the entire game. We cant consider only pro games to balance a game.
Maybe he is not picked because he doesnt fit well in the meta or in the way that the game is played right now on the pro scene. Maybe because there is no way to lane him on a pro game.
The way i think heroes should be balanced is analyzing his skill set, his stats grow, base damage, etc... So no hero must be best than X and no hero must be worst than Y. You can easily say that a hero is op by numbers.
And again All pick is not the same than captans mode.
If everyone knows that Batrider is OP then why is there 0 threads about people complaining about him? Right, because he is rarely picked in pubs. That hero actually takes skill to play and is a better ganker/laner/farmer and even late gamer than SB. But no. Better let me complain about SB because I see him in every game and he kicks ass. Meanwhile I don't even know what Batrider is because I don't see him at all. Also yes, all heroes that are not competitively picked have a reason behind them not getting picked therefore means there is a thing that counters them or makes them bad. This is definitely true for SB as well but you are don't wanna accept it. I gave you a couple of reasons why he wouldn't be OP but in turn you just flamed me. And yes, I called you a "low level" pub player. And isn't this true? Are you on very high bracket? If so you should have known there is no such thing as a hero that is "uncounterable".
Good dual lane will easily shut down SB + anything.
Don't get out of position and SB will be rendered useless. He is not OP at all, yet he can and WILL punish you for getting out of position and not having map control.
"If so you should have known there is no such thing as a hero that is "uncounterable".
Didnt you just called lifestealer and batrider OP ?
"all heroes that are not competitively picked have a reason behind them not getting picked"
Yes
"therefore means there is a thing that counters them or makes them bad."
No
Icefrog its not god. He will make mistake. He will create heroes with no counters. He will do shit overall .... and that its the reason why everyone should always complain if they dont like/ dont agree/ or thinks that a hero is OP and give they arguments.
A game should always be perfect balance, no bad hero, no op hero. That is what every game aim for.
And i still say that numbers prove him being OP.
What will probably happen is that he will get a strenght nerf, or bash will not proc on charge.
OP = hard to counter. Lifestealer has counters. So does Batrider and Wisp. But countering them might even make you change your strategy because countering them is generally very hard. But a simple 5-man push strat counters SB to the point where he can't even do shit.
What were your counters?
Stuns; already discussed.
Counterganking; already discussed.
Wards; already discussed.
These are applicable to every hero. They are not 'counters'. Having a team with lots of disables doesn't mean you 'countered' the enemy lineup. Counterganking is not a 'counter'. It is a method of playing. If you were an SB and you know your game is at a level where there will be wards, will you blind charge through runes/rivers? Would you not smoke?
I argued and discussed whatever you brought up whereas you simply IGNORED mine. And isn't what you just said benefiting me? To own at SB, you don't need much skill. Isn't that essentially saying everything about him? Batrider got nerfed numerous times when people started calling him OP until he's reached a level people don't whine about anymore. Yes dozens of people whined about him and yes, he was nerfed.
How are buffs and nerfs decided anyway?
They are decided by the public. Yes, the public. Through both pubs and competitive play, feedback and data regarding heroes are obtained. Plenty of heroes received nerfs even though 'counters' existed to them. Invoker got his damage nerfed, Lycan with his wolves... Its not as if these heroes were instant win but they got nerfed because the general consensus of the public was that they were too strong. The game exists for all the players. SB is currently stomping constantly and like you said, he doesn't even need skill to play.
Just because you play 3-1-1 where SB is weaker or simply amongst the players who feel SB is not overpowered, does not mean he isn't. A vast majority of players play casually in 2-1-2 with generally loose lineups instead of strict 2 supports and etc. If all it takes for a unskilled player to own is to pick SB, then yes, SB is overpowered.
And yes; I play primarily in Very High unless I stack with my friends.
Okay looks like we will have to do it with a replay. http://dotabuff.com/matches/338746529 check this game and you will see how easy it is to win against SB even when he has a Wisp Ursa in his team. Because you clearly had bad moments against him.
I just want to say, not everything revolves around competitive play.
Thats why heroes like Pudge exist. They are meant to be played for fun, and he is played for fun. The most picked hero in fact. However, a Pudge in any high level game where you go with a full proper lineup and 3-1-1 is just dooming yourself. Does that mean Pudge should be reworked or buffed? Because he's so disadvantaged in a proper game?
No.
AP is AP, CM is CM. 2-1-2 is most played and casual style. He owns 2-1-2. He should be nerfed. Thats all. Arguing against that is basically saying all nerfs to previously popular pub heroes like Lycan should be revoked as they were wrong.
Also no, he is not stomping constantly.
If you think that way, you will make all the people that pick the hero because they have fun stomping other people make sad if you nerf SB. So he shouldn't be nerfed right? He has a lot of pickers and they pick him because they like him the way he is.
Ignoring the rest of my post as usual, not surprised.
There have been plenty of threads on this forum and others regarding SB being OP. Why would someone think a hero is OP? Because he/she saw that hero owning with relative ease without relying on much skill. That last comment of yours is like a little child insisting another is wrong with no valid reasoning.
You clearly don't care about my opinions so I'm not going to bother anymore.
EDIT: According to your retard logic, 1 person has fun at the expense of many. Henceforth you just owned yourself.
No cons? Try looking at his skills. He has two single target disables and two passives. Once you avoid his ganks he is useless because all he can contribute to team fights is two mediocre disables and some magic damage. He's a lot like AM, PL, or really any hard carry but in reverse . The fact that you can't just ignore that he exists doesn't make him OP. ES isn't OP because he can chain disable a whole team. Wanna know why? Because it's up to the other team to see an ES on the enemy team and play accordingly. If people like the OP made DoTA then every hero would have the exact same stats and abilities because god forbid that you should actually have to think about how to stop the specific mechanic that any one hero in based around. If the other team has a bat rider you don't go too far forward so you avoid getting pulled into the enemy team. Against a AM you put pressure on him early game. Against a pudge you stay behind creeps to avoid getting hooked under tower. Against a SB you put down wards and trust me one charge you have to cancel as SB puts you way behind becuse it means your lane is weaker and now you only have your ultimate for disable and you're out of position. Once you can't safely gank as SB you have no late game team fight viability and are basically food for the enemy team. He's worse than Storm as a ganker and only is effective if the enemy team has no vision anywhere along the path of your charge and never reacts when you're missing. Yeah super OP.
Snowman ^: The problem then lies with where valve/froggy want the game to be balanced. As dota 2 was started as a competitive game, with teams and competitions in mind from the start, doesn't that mean it should be balanced for such? So what if SB is op in pubs, the game isn't designed for public, non team based play. If Bara is rarely picked in the mode for which this game is designed, doesn't that mean he needs a buff?
Yet again, someone who ignored all the posts.
You're thinking in terms of OP as someone who just rapes everything. Also, you assume the SB is a noob. Like I said, place yourselves in the shoes of the SB.
He doesn't need to be fed to rape you though. Really he just needs treads and already he can charge you from anywhere on the map and kill half the heroes in the game easily, his base stats are incredibly high, and his combo hurts a fuckton. Try to imagine that with good allies as well, you know, that gank with him?
He just needs a BKB and continues to bull doze that hero around while playing as a #3-4.
If you need to use Hex on a hero that is playing such a low role and hasn't had much farm priority, then you know something is wrong with the hero. What are you going to do about the the Na'ix/Luna/PL/Puck/QoP/OD/TA that is wrecking your team?
Its very hard to play against a hero with such movement that requires very little farm, is insanely fast, hurts a fuckton and disables a lot while playing as a #3/4.
@Monkeh, thats essentially saying a ton of heroes need buffs/reworking for them to start entering the meta. Face it, heroes are not tuned with just the competitive scene in mind. Techies/Pudge would not exist and etc and etc.
Also, that means all his nerfs on popular pub heroes like Drow, Lycan and etc were him being wrong? Are you saying that?
Well drow was never even in cm mode until she got nerfed. I think Lycan was used a lot in cm before his nerf. Basically I don't know. I'm far from even a good player, nevermind pro, so wtf do I know.
Personally I feel the game should be balanced for the team version of the game and pubs can make do. Lich is strong in ap but was never picked in cm due to the randomness of his amazing ulti. What happens? 7 bounces turns into 10.
Like I said, I'm far from good enough or knowledgeable enough to have this conversation really, it's nice to talk though huh?
I like discussing so as the discussion remains fun, I mean we both like the game yeah?
Lycan was used situationally in CM, not frequently.
Some heroes just don't fit in different modes, simply because they are played differently. Wisp is somewhat of a shitty hero in pub because he needs coordination and teamplay whereas Slark shines more in pubs because of pickoff and snowballing. Currently, SB doesn't fit the meta. Buffing him is out of the question meaning he'll only enter the meta if it changes or if he gets a rework. However, he's just too strong for casual games. He works too well against too many heroes in too many situations.
I already did the maths on his combo and you still say it hurts a fuckton. Also yes, all SB players are generally bad because they are in the mind set of "dude i can't play anything else so I will just pick SB and hope to own some noobs" and pros generally have fun playing skill heroes like Puck and QoP rather than those unskill right click heroes. Also he doesn't require very little farm. If you want him to have the slightest late game impact you need a shit ton of farm on him. Also this thread is just a kid raging about a hero that doesn't have a point because we all know Icefrog won't come here and read this.
Also what's so wrong about using hex on a 3 role hero? If you ever watch pro games you will see Batrider's almost always lasso the support first so that the fight can be 4v5.
I can't win you Sam, you've convinced me.
SB is an underpowered fuck. He needs a buff or he'll never see light in competitive play.
Yeah that's what I said for sure. Dude you are still raging. Calm down and drink a monster.
Every energy drink sucks.
Every hero that is a little bit more powerful than others needs a nerf.
Every hero that is a little bit usuless than the others needs a buff.
There shall be a perfect balance on heroes.
So there is my opinion.
Sam you must be a lucky person. You dont know the felling of getting 4 or 5 times bashed. ( something like 6 or 7 second perma disabled ). This must be the case here ..... you math didnt count autoatacks and the usually perma bash.
http://es.twitch.tv/blitzdota/c/2844483
That would NEVER happen against slardar or void or troll. I mean even troll with max atack speed would bash less.
Spirit breaker is easy to stop - get a Tree on your team, SB will not get any kills.
Abaddon or Omni Knight - both of the shields work nicely
Anyone with a quick stun like rubik or lion
" get a Tree on your team"
That its even worst than spirit breaker. I mean who will be the poor bastard to play tree ?
Want to stop fun ? get a tree on your team, no one is going to get any kills.
what if,
we have imba SB with no cons in one team vs tree "no one is going to get any kills" in other one
who wins ?
^Tree. Every ganker in this game hates tree.
Sb still imba.
Tree even more imba (?)
But who plays tree.
nobody plays tree, cause he's a boring hero, at least in pubs, people like to see big numbers and shit, i'm not saying that sb doesn't have a boring gameplay, it's just like tree just sits in the jungle for the 10 first minutes, doing nothing else than healing heroes and towers, whereas, if you're playing spirit breaker, you go and charge shit, you see some action.
Spirit breaker is extremely boring too. Tree you try to pick 3 or hero in your ulti at least.
I really like dazzle over tree.
I'm really regretting missing this e-penis show-off in action :(
He has 200 more EHP than any other hero at the start of the game. That's some bullshit.
And highest winrate out of every hero in very high.
http://dotametrics.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/dota-2-hero-winrates-by-game-duration/
He has the highest winrate, incredibly high base armor and base strength, along with high base damage.
It is not only, that he can solo most heros with ease. It is how simple he can setup ganks with mates. They see the Sb exactly, and the enemy has often no clue.
Ofc if you have a sb on team, that charges from top to botlane, everybody will see him. A smart SB will just sit half a screen away to charge. His midgamepresence is amazing.
I personally agree, that he is a little too strong for pubs. Esp the fact that in higher matchmaking tiers his winratio increases, this seems to be true.
He is a pain in the ass counter for many common pubheros. How often you have someone going SF firstpick for mid?
This SF will have a painfull time against sb. Only very decent supports will save this sf from feeding. This applies to many midheros. This lead to next problem: In soloque decent supports are sometimes hard to find.
Also sb has clearly some cons.
- He is a waste on a trilane. This space could be better filled with LS/Alche/Cancerlancer
- He sucks midlane
- He sucks offlane
So laning him means, relying on him snowballing. if you can stop him from snowballing, he is a waste in every aspect. He just soaked the farm from safelane and contributes nothing.
Also alot of heros just fuck him up. Any singletarget stun with low casting animation or hex, will do the job. Just get a slardar and let him charge you. Stun before he hits the bash, cast ult on him, and beat the crap out of him. Same for clockwork, or juggernaut.
Just spin before he arrives and use ult. A lion can hex him, before he arrives.
He is too strong in pubs, cause pubplayers tend to pick bullshit.
Heros that can deal with SB:
- Clock, Slardar, Sandking, CM, Lion, Rhasta, Naga, Batrider, Void (with chrono), CK (once he gets ulti on time), Invoker (coldsnap), Puck, ogre
- Items: Euls, Hex
Ofc if you go mort, lich, antimage, sniper, sf he will bang you in the ass.
He is a situational hero that works well against many common pubpicks.
The hero is OP and extremally pub stomper.
The fact that exist a way to play that counters him doesn't mean the hero isn't OP, or any hero could be considered OP.
Bara = at least a secure kill on lvl 6.
5 man smoke, 1 person reveals himself on map (a furion/tinker will be great, they wont expect backup) GET CHARGED!!!
????
PROFIT!!!
First of all, in all honesty, even if Sam seems to have a big ego or whatever, all his posts make sense. The only one not making sense is op. @Dorkly, you want to be on the fence by trying to be nice and all but you make no sense either. Sam said that bat and naix are op and you assumed that he meant they are uncounterable wtf?
@Sam, I agree especially with what you said about SB being really out of place in the laning stage. The only situation I see him in is in a safelane carry and dominate midgame hard so that lategame is relatively easy. The problem with this is that ofc you're wasting his early potential (high base str etc) The other time I can see Sb is in a support role / roam. But this role is kinda iffy in a sense that getting the levels is hard. SB really need levels.
@op, I know you said that 2 support tp to prevent sb gank or w/e is not consider a counter. You also said that stuns are not consider a counter. The truth is, that is part of dota 2. Stuns are created for situations like these. For ganks, counter ganks etc. You're looking for a specific hero that counters SB. That is not realistic. Not every hero in dota2 have a specific hero that counters another hero. Sure SB has a high base str in the early stage, take note of that and adjust your gameplay towards that. Have a 2 man support tp to help mid if he ganks mid or whatever. SB potential decreases drastically as soon as the game reaches midgame. Just 5-man dota and all will be better. I'm not saying that SB is not OP. I agree he is strong but not to the point as you portray him to be. He sucks in the laning stage in the sense of what role he plays in.
Sorry if you dont understand what I want to say, my english isn't that good
No, I do get what you're trying to say. Sam has pointed out several times how unless its a really squishy hero, a non-snowballing SB can't just charge in and get a free kill, not unless he gets unbelievably lucky with bashes. Cross map bashes can be countered as well by map awareness + wards or teleporting to countergank.
However, this basically assuming the SB operates alone or is inadequate in skill. It is very easy to avoid wards with teleports to position charges or simply smoking. As powerful as counterganks are, they can be dealt with, no? Unless that SB is a noob, which most people who play him are, its easy to escape as vision is granted of the target. Unless you unfortunately bump into multiple heroes who were already there, counterganks mean little to him. Counterganking is not omnipotent. Thats like saying Puck or QoP are not strong gankers. And they can't move around as far as he can or disable as well.
You pointed how SB weakens lategame, and I'm happily pointing out it does not. The ability to shutdown a carry with BKB is very powerful, especially when the hero doing so is tanky and his ulti makes him invulnerable. Let me rephrase what I said earlier. SB if properly played, is done so as a #4. If he ever gets items, its due to snowballing kills but the thing is, he doesn't need them; because charge lets him stay at the back and yet join the fight quickly. Because his ulti makes him invulnerable. How many #4 heroes can do what he can? He's strong. Stronger than other heroes. That means he needs a nerf.
I'm merely pointing out for the way pubs are played, he is too strong. So we've got a hero that doesn't fit competitively but is too strong in normal games. Does that not mean the hero needs a nerf/rework?
I mentioned quite a few times how many popular pub heroes got nerfed.
Lycan.
Invoker.
Drow.
So unless anyone can argue to me that these heroes deserved to be nerfed when they had obvious counters, then shutup about SB not needing a nerf. Because means to stop a hero exist, do not mean that hero is not overpowered. SB is just too versatile and thus needs a bloody god damn nerf.
He is not that strong, it hurts to see this kinds of threads.
I'm pretty sure wisp and nature's prophet can be more flexible when it comes to global ganking.
Elder Titan is becoming a popular pick now, I'm waiting for a real complaint.
Lycan.
Invoker.
Drow.
Were top material for high tier games. Except for drow, which was not even permitted to play in CM before her nerf.
@flyingpigs
I wrote like 1.000 arguments here on my first posts. if you have not noticed the ones here who are completely ignoring arguments are the ones defending the hero. And the only argument that they repeat over and over and over again is that he is not picked in CM.
I am just tired to argue with people when they dont argument well and only the same thing over and over again.
Snowman already counter argumented everything that Sam said. Counter ganks, stuns, wards, etc ..... if the SB is on the same level of his enemies he will gank successfully.
The thing is not his burst potential ... but his stun lock potential.
"Esp the fact that in higher matchmaking tiers his winratio increases, this seems to be true."
The fun stuff here is that he stomps not only on low level pubs.
"He is a situational hero that works well against many common pubpicks."
The thing is, heroes like sniper drow etc can be played if you are good in positioning, but it doesnt matter if the enemy team has a spirit breaker because he has the best way in this game to close the gap. Blink heroes have a range limit, heroes like clock depends on a skill shot, but spirit breaker only needs to press a button and he will get in meele range with no problem. A charge and a ulti will probably rape any squishy hero. In this case it just doesnt matter the positioning.
A hero that counters 90 % of the other heroes in this game .... how can this be normal ?
"Also alot of heros just fuck him up. Any singletarget stun with low casting animation or hex, will do the job. Just get a slardar and let him charge you. Stun before he hits the bash, cast ult on him, and beat the crap out of him. Same for clockwork, or juggernaut.
Just spin before he arrives and use ult. A lion can hex him, before he arrives."
The charge speed is pretty fast so is not that easy to stun him before he arrives. And if he charges on a good angle he will initiate by the trees so its not posible to stun him.
Just don't go places where the enemy clearly has vision alone. Sentry and kill their wards. Then bara is kinda sub standard.
Look at this way, if you nerf SB in ALL the following ways;
1. Lower base damage to by 12 to 57.
2. Lower starting strength by 2 to 27.
3. Charge now has a cancellation penalty of 100 second cd. If charge connects, CD is as usual.
Do you think this will make the hero unplayable or majorly weak? No.
Now imagine if you nerf Shadow Demon in ONE of the following ways;
1. Lower disruption duration by 0.25 seconds.
OR
2. Lower purge duration by 0.5 seconds.
OR
3. Lower base damage by 5.
A single one of these nerfs of SD and you'll see it it spark plenty of debate on how SD is about to spiral down to shit tier and see less competitive play.
You get what I'm saying? If multiple nerfs to a hero do not destroy a heros effectiveness, then it is a sign the hero needed a nerf in the first place.
Invoker was Tier 1 but Lycan...? He was arguably a situational Tier 3 hero. I'd like to repeat my argument again, did picking this heroes mean you would instant win the game? NO. They could be countered and had their flaws and yet they got nerfed. Contradictory, eh? Overpowered does not mean a hero cannot be stopped. Stop saying SB is not overpowered because of the flimsy little 'counters' out there to merely stop 1 of his skills.
Yes. If you nerf SB in all those ways you would completely destroy the hero. There is a reason why this game is balanced around good players and thank god people like you are not in charge of balance.
Destroy him?
How?
Oh you mean those insane level 1/2/3 ganks over the entire fucking map eh? But then lets bring up what all the pros have said anyway, that these retarded charges shouldn't even matter if a team is coordinated. Then what? Having lesser 50 hp destroys him in lane? Woah. Crazy. Lower crazy high base damage to idk a somewhat ABOVE average base damage?
Maybe less permenant charging everywhere conquering map control for ANY ENEMY hero that pushes out in less than a group of 3. You have any idea how much map control you get when you're able to zoom around with a skill cd shorter than a minute?
Genius.
Before anyone can come to any agreement on this, I think we need to define why SB is so strong.
Other heroes are general countered with picks and lanes, and late game team fight positioning. SB is one of the few heroes, like Pudge, that FORCES you to adapt your whole play style. You HAVE to have wards, you HAVE to TP to your allies in need, ans you HAVE to be aware at all times against a SB. What makes this different from a normal hero in a good gankers hands is that any retard with SB can punish pubs for being pubs. With no skill, he can be laned anywhere, solo kill with no items, and rampage with items. To me, at this level, that makes him OP.
To everyone asking why he isn't picked in pro games while considered OP, it's because by default play in a way that counters him. He's not on THEIR meta, but that doesn't mean he isn't an absurd hero. I don't even try and I win with him, and I never feel like it's a deserved win.
Edited for typos. Phone post best post
Teh, you make me feel stupid when you summed everything up like that.
But yes, I totally agree with all that you've said.