General DiscussionMask of Madness

Its all about item use not the items fault someone pops it at strange times. The problem with lurking in the trench.

It's a troll or desperation item. You get it only when you are losing or winning hard.

mom is positioning item like force staff/ phase boots and blink

^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
best players get it for the MS not the AS.

On Sven and SB you are supposed to use it with BkB. Its a high risk item, easy to mess up but lots of dps for the gold if you use it correctly. Personally I almost never get it...to much risk for me.

MoM can win or lose a game very easily.

recently i played a slark game where i got fb and few early kills.
i head MoM in lets say 4-5 mins and from there i started raping everyone HARDCORE

early MoM on slark ( also for example riki ) will destroy enemies and u get like 20+ kills before they even think about buying detection :)

ofcourse it also depends on the enemies, so its a situational pick.

but theres nothing better than raping enemies after 5 mins - end :D

Well those replies are in line with what I've experienced. I have one friend in particular who is just plain terrible at dota (but my bro's irl best friend so we group with him way to often) and loves to go sven and mask. He always uses it at worst times. That's kinda how I've viewed it, high risk, high reward, but for me the reward still isn't high enough to justify.

Can you activate it while SB is mid charge without breaking the charge?

u can it doesnt break charge

MoM is a great item. I personally get it when i need huge bunch of mobility/dps RIGHT NOW and cheap. So i could make some difference in upcoming teamfight without waiting for expensive items to come.
Also works well in situations where u blocked on base, and know you'll never farm your expensive items. As last resort, it can help u make huge comeback if used properly.

MoM is awesome on SB and Sven, I don't get why the hate. Just don't be retarded, which you shouldn't be with any item

Bad item, in normal bracket

It should be used mostly for MS and burst dmg, not to be used in team fights. Your main carry (#1) should never get it because they need to be your team fight go to guy, but if you are the semi carry who is in charge of ganking with a hero like sb/riki/slark (as aforementioned) then it can be good.

http://dotabuff.com/items/morbid-mask

I think the stats speak for themselves. Too bad we can't break down that data by skill tier

*eyes staff*

^ http://dotabuff.com/items/mask-of-madness
...

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its not good.

Its a situational item that can make you far stronger for just 1.9k. And did you call it nonsense on RK? Its practically core on him unless you have allied heroes who bump up your attack speed. No, spending about 6k MORE for the same amount of attack speed and ms is not worth taking less damage.

For speeding up farming and solo pushing it's quite a good item. In 5v5 fights you should think twice before activating it :)

It's a fine item for void. Reasons: Lets you farm nonstop in jungle (lifesteal). Let's you farm the jungle faster (AS + MS to next camp). Let's you solo kill a wondering noob easier (AS + MS if you need to chase a bit). For the last advantage, note you can even use ONLY MoM (and no ult) to kill certain supports that have no stun (e.g. Chen). Let's you run away faster if needed (MS). You can push/take towers faster (AS). And of course, it is never straight bad. Dying in team fights? Well, how about this: don't activate the MoM. Problem solved. This reduces the 2k item to the 1k morbid mask (which can never HURT you). Sure, you wasted about 1k gold in that context, but I think those other advantages can make up for that 1k investment if used properly.

As for the solo-killing, after they changed void's ultimate, the item synergies with him in solo killing contexts more than ever. Why? Bashes do double damage in chronosphere. That extra attack speed greatly increases your expected dps.

For around the same cost we can look at:
Mask of Madness - 30% burst move speed, 100 burst attack speed (12 seconds duration, 25 seconds cooldown & takes 30% extra dmg)
Hyperstone 2100 - 55 attack speed
Yasha 2050 - 10% move speed, 31 attack speed (15 attack speed + 16 agility)
Drums 1775 - 5% move speed, 14 attack speed (+10% move speed, 10 attack speed active - 4 casts)

It's basically a very situational item, it's the only item that gives you a quick burst of 100 attack speed for such a low cost.
That's why you usually see it on sven and spirit breaker. It's especially amazing on sven when you use warcry + mask of madness together, with just treads alone you'll almost be at 500 movespeed. What's more scary than a sven's cleave with bkb, god str, 500 move speed and bonus 100 attack speed?

Obviously a bkb sven charging in can be stopped by many ways, naga ensnare or bane grip etc but that is situational too no?
The main point is that mask of madness is a low cost item that provides great burst attack speed and move speed for heroes like sven when they need it the most (bkb and god str).

If you noticed, it's usually only the str carries that get it because they usually lack attack speed and they're tanky at the same time (and usually strength carries don't go for items like butterfly, they go assault if they need attack speed).
Whereas for agi carries they usually already have decent attack speed and they're fragile which I don't understand why some people get them on drow especially. Can you imagine? A drow that shoots at say 0.87 second/attack activates mask of madness and shoots at 0.69 second/attack and takes in 30% extra damage? (not actual attack speed figures, but just an estimation)

Compare it to a str hero that is say attacking at 1.1 seconds/attack and activating it to be 0.84 second/attack.

The point is that you don't get it on heroes that already have high attacking speed, or heroes that have attack speed items in their standard item builds. You get it on tanky heroes that do not have high attack speed.

Eg. Spirit breaker usually goes treads, mask of madness and bkb 3 standard core items.

Sven is a little more situational, some people go phase drums and some go for treads but bkb is a must.
So what are you going to do about attack speed for sven? Some possible items that sven can get that provides attack speed are treads (30 attack speed), midas (30 attack speed), shadow blade (30 attack speed), drums (14 attack speed, 24 attack speed when activated), assault (55 attack speed). Usually you'll only see these items.

It depends on you but personally I only aim to have an attack speed of around 0.8x attack/second. I consider it fast enough to make an impact with sven's god str + passive cleave and a daedalus in the short time when you have your opponents stunned. 2-3 of those big strikes would already make a great impact in my opinion.

And when you talk about sven taking 30% more damage while charging in with god str bkb mom and possibly a daedalus, he is making a much greater impact with the 100 attack speed in the teamfight. Think about a 800+ damage critical with passive 65% cleave late game that's insane damage output.

Well let me ask you another question then, if you're not getting mask of madness for sven then what attack speed items are you going to get for him that will still offer him a reasonable amount of attack speed? Give me a practical answer, assuming it's a mid-game sven with average progression (amount of gold up to your discretion) in his farm.

I don't play sven often and I have a terrible win rate with him (mainly due to playing him early in my dota career and other players leaving). I was just saying the mediocre players I play with pop mask and get insta gibbed. They pop it at terrible times I guess. Offhand playing sven I'd probably go treads, dominator, bkb (flip those depending on situation), ac, satanic/heart.

http://dotabuff.com/players/104307918/matches?hero=sven&game_mode=&match_type=real

the mask is working ok for me, maybe you are just shit at playing sven.

Shittiest item in this game, though I would still go for it on some heroes :D

I get it on any carry/semi-carry, no fucks given. It's a pub after all, if you use it wisely it can be pretty legit (sometimes).

http://dotabuff.com/matches/339307894

what I hate the most is that our sniper built MoM, Shadow blade and 3 divines

Went fine dropping the top racks, then he proceeded to run away and avoid dropping the mid racks

later he wants us to push so we attempt to push and he pops MoM dies infront of the mid tower feeds them 3 divines and then chases Lycan halfway across the map while they push through the mid to win.

Why isn't this report offense? Why can't they take action against a guy that does builds like this? This is the exact reason I can't stay about 50% win-rate, this is a heavy reason a lot of my friends simply stopped playing the game all together. Matchmaking stuffs you into a game with some jackass and you have to take a loss because he wont play a normal game.

You have razor, ursa, sniper, PA, and jug. You're at such a low level of play just forget about it and play. Every game you play will come down to which random terrible (you included) feeds off other random terribles.

I get it on Bara after Armlet and before BKB, makes me imba(er).

great item on batrider

There is no getting out of this "low" level of play, I picked my hero first, the fact that 4 more carries came along after the fact doesn't help anything. It's always someone who has managed to play for 10 years and has a group of people that have secured him into a better bracket to drop their "advice" which is just snide insults that don't help a player at all.

Maybe you should look up the meaning of your name, you seem affected by it. And by the way:
1.) I hardly played dota 1 (i played it casually like I played all wc3 mods). Back then, I was so bad I didn't even know what wards were, always chose strength heroes (int heroes blew!), always got PT, etc.
2.) Never played HoN
3.) Have been playing DotA a lot for about as long as DotA 2 has been out.
4.) I got into vh bracket by myself a very long time ago when I started to realize how to play carries. It started with imba lycan and now it's imba lifestealer farm. I have ~70% win rate on LS mostly solo queue or at most 2 queue on the latest version of dota.

I have made your statements false. But I didn't even have to do that since they were pretty irrelevant at fighting against my points prior. You are still in an extremely low bracket of play (indicated by those picks). Just play it out... it's basically a flip of a coin who wins just like it's a flip of a coin to see which of two mice find cheese in a novel maze first. Stop blaming shit on MoM and DR.

@Dunning, if you want to get through the brackets fast, practice powerhouse mids like TA or QOP. You'll cruise through easily because these heroes do best when not specifically countered. Leave the hard carries and start picking snowballing semis. You'll win a lot more.

Or you stack. This is the best way because you get to play a larger variety of heroes with decent players who will probably become friends.

Best treant item in game >:)

If you are complaining about that Sniper you better see this PL http://dotabuff.com/matches/330424307. He intentionally sold all his items and bought 2 rapiers just to feed them to the enemy.

if any of you expect decent games outside of first few pages without 5 stack i have bad news for you

This was first page believe it or not.

and how many games end like that in your experience as a regular top page player?

Not that much. But sometimes people are just way too retarded that you can't blame anyone but his parents for that. They suffered brain damage or some shit.