The match-making system really is bad. It paired me up with level 2 win 1 people who does not even know the basic fundamental of the game. The game is a one sided.
@lie to me
How come I don't get any of those people then? People on this forums complaining about bad teammates and getting low priority all the time, none of my friends have this problem. Or does MM just discriminates agaisnt certain people?
MM does discriminate against certain types of people. It will give highly skilled players who solo que much harder games and low skilled players who solo que very easy games.
LPQ also discriminates against people, against ragers, against throwers, against people who feed badly enough, against people who ks or hog the courier or start fights, against people who que into English only and then speak other languages, if you are the sort of person who easily makes others upset or angry then LPQ will discriminate against you. It won't care if you don't think you deserve it.
@The Terrible, really you and I and everyone else who solos into High and Very High games gets "bad" players on their team as much as the whiners. But rather than it ruining dota for us, we just work with what we get and realize that not everyone knows how to ward, that everyone has bad games, that everyone sometimes plays a hero they are bad at using, that most players simply can't do most things right in dota...and don't have some delusional idea that we deserve to get carried every game by matchmaking bias and sometimes its a bit against us. So we suck it up, play the best we can, and the next game is easier the vast majority of the time.
2b) I doubt it. I know the basic form of how TSR equations are constructed and its not going to be possible to back it out from the data without far far more effort and time than its worth. I am an aerospace engineer who loves solving puzzles, but that is one that even I would look at it and say eh, who cares.
2c) Partly this will not be revealed because its proprietary information. So for business reasons, it will never be explained. Also I'm sure these things will be changed and tweaked indefinitely.
The primary question of how to do it is a philosophical one. Do you go for the most freedom of choice for the players queing? Or do you go for the most "mathematically" close to fair matches. Its clear from the way they have it now that Valve is going for maxing player freedom to choose their team. And the "bad" players you can get on your team when solo queing is one consequence of this philosophical position...but I've explained all that several times in earlier posts.
Vaikiss`742 said he is gonna quit dota, and if u open his steam profile u will see, 0.7 hours last 2 weeks played, and if check the names he used, u will see "I quitted" as one of them
for those who want to play dota 1 without an hackers, here u go,
http://dotalicious-gaming.com/
this is the best platform i have ever played on..
ranking system, skill lvls, and NO HACKS, if u r suspicious about some hack action, report that guy, and he could take a 100 days ban, this is the best report system, Maelk was n1 on this website until dota 2 came up
It seems you forget the old snowball effect. I played a game, (yes, in shit tier noob-hell wow I'm bad, yeah I know), where I made a really stupid mistake and went to the side shop, as I desperately wanted some boots, without really looking if it was safe.
Got jumped on and died, naturally I'd just spent my money and had none left for a TP. Had to walk back, (It's OK guys...I got my boots). Was laning against a viper and an ogre magi. Viper got the kill and then basically free farm for the time it took me to get back, not to mention the extra level for the kill in the first place.
This viper eventually went on to rape the whole team, as we couldn't really do much to stop them farming after that with their damn extra levels and gold, and it was all because of my idiot mistake.
One mistake and the game can be lost. This doesn't make me a bad player, (being bad at the game makes me a bad player), and I think you forget this sometimes. Once people realise the game is lost then even more silly things can happen as care levels drop and those feelings of, 'I just wanna have a good game', take over and more and more stupidity occurs to end the game quickly.
Yeah, I get what you mean, but the point I was making is that after that 1 mistake me and my lane partner couldn't really get close and get some farm to even it out, if we did we'd just get raped, so then you're thinking they're just getting fatter and fatter and there is nothing you can do about it...so it can only takes 1 mistake to unbalance everything and leave you fooked.
In that situation you either stand around under your tower watching them farm or you try to do something about it. Second option there will either make you look like a hero or a.....retard.
Yes, I stacked and pulled some neutrals but they just came and took that farm off us as well.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/174854855 < That was actually CM with a stack
The guy who is a captain, made a few mistakes, and just failed the pick. Happens, what can I say.
Plus witch who I didn't knew sucked balls, not MM fail, just my friends fail.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175534860 < BUT DENDI DID DOUBLE MIDAS AND WON HOW DID I LOST. yea that one I agree, although just to be fair, a) Our team composition sucked b) Their chen and sniper were geniuily good. c) Sniper had free farm agaisnt mirana. Not as much that players werent the same skill, more that everyone plays whatever the fuck they want, and fail to consider enemy hero composition.
I like how while Relentless is giving good advice, detailed explanations, and doing this in good manner, he is getting ravaged by people who have no regard for sound arguments.
i was telling that guy, "Casual", dont be such an ass, and btw, u always talk about winrates, so pls stfu, "A nerd with 59% winrate", "a faggot with 49% in my team"
I think that win-rates aren't significant except for putting you in the higher tier games (where people who want to play proper games are in --- supposedly anyway), since it doesn't accurately show your skill levels.
Your win rates can be pulled down by:
1. Teammates of lower skill levels who should not be in a higher tier game (matchmake problem)
2. Teammates who have been matched to the right difficulty, but was using an unfamiliar hero or just had a bad day
3. Selfish players (eg. no one wants to play support heroes, whole team refuse to buy courier, gem or wards)
4. Bad hero lineups against opponent (which can also be caused by selfish players who just want to play carries, if you would just say that you want to play a carry from the start then I would gladly pick a support, don't wait until people have already picked carries for the team and you do a last-pick carry)
5. Leavers
6. Trolls
7. Or that the other team is simply better than yours overall (fair enough)!
I think valve should introduce a player-rating system to vote people up/down into lower/higher tiers for being cooperative or not. A blacklist to prevent you from being mm-ed into the same team as the person next time would be fabulous as well.
Now, I don't condemn newbies (since I'm just an average player myself) coz everyone starts out new and should be given a chance to try. And of coz, not everyone is talented enough to play like pro-league players even if they've been playing for a long time.
I ask that everyone please be patient with newbies and try to guide them if you see they're doing something wrong instead of plainly raging at them and making everything worse (demoralizing them possibly worsening their play and making them hate you).
I feel the bigger problem is dealing with players who do not want to listen or cooperate with other players.
Eg. http://dotabuff.com/matches/175338433
The guy requested for solo mid, and we said okay. He picked a kotl and we were quite skeptical about it at first but respected his decision (we're friendly players).
It was a POTM, kotl, panda, tiny, cw lineup against NS, bh, naix, alchemist, NA.
Then this kotl just refused to play the game with us, refused to replenish the mana of tiny (who was asking for mana and pinging the NA to indicate he wants mana to engage the NA) and only replenished his 3/4 full mana ignoring the tiny and went back to continue farming nc.
For the first 25 minutes, he didn't buy any boots and ONLY stuck around at the mid tower to farm creeps and NC to upgrade his dagon (what's the use of a kotl farming for 25 mins and doing nothing to push towers or help in engagements?) and when I questioned him about it he said he didn't pick mid to be a support. So obviously after giving him mid he did no contributions after farming for the whole game (late game 1k hp) and eventually any one of their heroes on the other team could eat him for breakfast. He believes he would win us the game by farming mid/nc and forget about helping to push towers. He owns opponent heroes naix alchemist ns with nothing but his almighty dagon.
............................
Then again I searched the tier of that match and found it to be a normal tier, maybe that explains ...
Sigh, but these kind of things don't just happen in normal tier games. I'll just have to do a little digging through records to find people like that I've met in high or very high tier games.
The main issue is not about the skill level, it's about dealing with idiots who refuse to play the game properly or listening to people's advice/cooperating. DOTA is a team game afterall.
@TS I think my rant probably went off-topic somewhere but just saying chill lol, we can't expect mm to be perfect since people could be in the wrong game tiers quite often (lol). Rather I find it more depressing when you get complete retards on your team (not talking about their skill level but just the players themselves). Being noob is one thing, people tell you heroes missing and you still wander off alone into unwarded areas and feed is just being downright stupid.
I pick storm, dominate mid, gank well and lo and behold my entire team feed and eventually after trying to 5v1 the other team multiple times I just can't control 5 fed enemies.
What really frustrates me is the fact that none of the other team were particularly good, but my team were all exceptionally woeful. I mean, I'm stomping completely and hitting scores like 25-5/28-2 and the rest of my team still manage to end up scoring some woeful shit scores like 2-18 (all of them!)
Kudos, but it's impossible for an entire team to get that bad.
I would have more sympathy if only one of my team fed that bad and we were let down by one idiot, but no... I'm let down by 4. Twice. (in fact it's happened far more but these examples are amazing)
Also...
most of the kills my team manage to scrape are only because I didn't get the last hit.
OP is a fucking retard who cant communicate with a proper way,
his Opinion:
If u got 59% winrate, u r a nerd,
If u got 51% winrate, u r normal,
If u got 49% winrate, u r a fucking retard and must uninstall dota,
This shows that Winrate got a meaning, and u fucking retard, trying to let it not have a meaning, but still letting it have a meaning, get ur shit together u fucking retarded kid
Right, because anyone with decent stats is a smurf? k, I guess you never heard of dota1, heck I could have come from any other MOBA and been better than all the trash in the normal tier bracket
so anyway, play a bit of spot the difference, between these 2 games:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/173459570 Dazzle supporting me, buys courier, wards, stacks + pulls, harasses
http://dotabuff.com/matches/169913665 (note that I chose Weaver to be offlane, but for some reason PL went there too, so we had me + PL top and Jakiro + KOTL bot..I told him I could solo offlane while they trilaned, but nope he didn't want to move, so I swapped lanes with KOTL)
Jakiro spams the chat saying that he is the carry for some reason, no wards, at all, contests lasts hit, doesn't pull until like 10 minutes in, despite me asking him to do it from the first minute. He then spams about how he is going to "rush" ethereal blade, and in doing so feeds the enemy by being in shit positions over and over. PL is building vlads for some reason, I tell him its no good, and Jakiro being the faggot that he is suggests he buys mekk. Note that KOTL already had this item, and there was no way anyone could take this Jakiro seriously, and PL still bought mek.
Most of my games at the moment are in the High Bracket (solo queue), and 2 have been in the Very High Bracket, I'm not expecting xiao8 to be by my side, but at least basic competence and a decent understanding of what is going on in the game.
lol, i am the one who is mad, whining about MM, stfu and play, or talk shit and dont play, or try to solve the problem in a reasonable way, posting in the right forums, if they dont answer, then no one cares
The match-making system really is bad. It paired me up with level 2 win 1 people who does not even know the basic fundamental of the game. The game is a one sided.
@lie to me
How come I don't get any of those people then? People on this forums complaining about bad teammates and getting low priority all the time, none of my friends have this problem. Or does MM just discriminates agaisnt certain people?
MM does discriminate against certain types of people. It will give highly skilled players who solo que much harder games and low skilled players who solo que very easy games.
LPQ also discriminates against people, against ragers, against throwers, against people who feed badly enough, against people who ks or hog the courier or start fights, against people who que into English only and then speak other languages, if you are the sort of person who easily makes others upset or angry then LPQ will discriminate against you. It won't care if you don't think you deserve it.
@The Terrible, really you and I and everyone else who solos into High and Very High games gets "bad" players on their team as much as the whiners. But rather than it ruining dota for us, we just work with what we get and realize that not everyone knows how to ward, that everyone has bad games, that everyone sometimes plays a hero they are bad at using, that most players simply can't do most things right in dota...and don't have some delusional idea that we deserve to get carried every game by matchmaking bias and sometimes its a bit against us. So we suck it up, play the best we can, and the next game is easier the vast majority of the time.
2b) I doubt it. I know the basic form of how TSR equations are constructed and its not going to be possible to back it out from the data without far far more effort and time than its worth. I am an aerospace engineer who loves solving puzzles, but that is one that even I would look at it and say eh, who cares.
2c) Partly this will not be revealed because its proprietary information. So for business reasons, it will never be explained. Also I'm sure these things will be changed and tweaked indefinitely.
The primary question of how to do it is a philosophical one. Do you go for the most freedom of choice for the players queing? Or do you go for the most "mathematically" close to fair matches. Its clear from the way they have it now that Valve is going for maxing player freedom to choose their team. And the "bad" players you can get on your team when solo queing is one consequence of this philosophical position...but I've explained all that several times in earlier posts.
Vaikiss`742 said he is gonna quit dota, and if u open his steam profile u will see, 0.7 hours last 2 weeks played, and if check the names he used, u will see "I quitted" as one of them
for those who want to play dota 1 without an hackers, here u go,
http://dotalicious-gaming.com/
this is the best platform i have ever played on..
ranking system, skill lvls, and NO HACKS, if u r suspicious about some hack action, report that guy, and he could take a 100 days ban, this is the best report system, Maelk was n1 on this website until dota 2 came up
I guess his life got way better without all the stress from dota 2 mm
haha valve retards at work
-Removed ability for spectators to report players in-game.
HAHAHAHAHAHAA oh god took them a while
best of the best work at valve thats for sure
The last game Im paired with rubick and pl that lose ez lane to solo bb, while our hard bh is being destroyed by their 3 men -> another forced loss.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175466388
I just dont get if they even have brains to make such teams.
Gg as usual.
Just played 3 games with a friend, awesome teammtes, support when needed, carry from the gods. MM is awesome :D
^ You didnt answer my question, btw failed trolling.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/174854855
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175534860 - uwswum matchmaking yeah? :P
Call me now god of gods in carrying, cuz I usually play a little bit better than 5-12 sf.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175703611
Impossible shit. Retarded newb takes sniper for hard, pl and kotl suck. Never thought pl and kotl can lose to 2 melee before these 2 guys.
It seems you forget the old snowball effect. I played a game, (yes, in shit tier noob-hell wow I'm bad, yeah I know), where I made a really stupid mistake and went to the side shop, as I desperately wanted some boots, without really looking if it was safe.
Got jumped on and died, naturally I'd just spent my money and had none left for a TP. Had to walk back, (It's OK guys...I got my boots). Was laning against a viper and an ogre magi. Viper got the kill and then basically free farm for the time it took me to get back, not to mention the extra level for the kill in the first place.
This viper eventually went on to rape the whole team, as we couldn't really do much to stop them farming after that with their damn extra levels and gold, and it was all because of my idiot mistake.
One mistake and the game can be lost. This doesn't make me a bad player, (being bad at the game makes me a bad player), and I think you forget this sometimes. Once people realise the game is lost then even more silly things can happen as care levels drop and those feelings of, 'I just wanna have a good game', take over and more and more stupidity occurs to end the game quickly.
Those snowballs man, dey grow quick.
^ You call a hardlane sniper and pl+kotl sucking lane a one mistake? For me it is more like epic retards.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175322985
A friend of mine (Last) is matched against Dexter and Merlini with some mere 3 kda players.
HUEHUEHUE matchmaking is trolling.
Yeah, I get what you mean, but the point I was making is that after that 1 mistake me and my lane partner couldn't really get close and get some farm to even it out, if we did we'd just get raped, so then you're thinking they're just getting fatter and fatter and there is nothing you can do about it...so it can only takes 1 mistake to unbalance everything and leave you fooked.
In that situation you either stand around under your tower watching them farm or you try to do something about it. Second option there will either make you look like a hero or a.....retard.
Yes, I stacked and pulled some neutrals but they just came and took that farm off us as well.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/174854855 < That was actually CM with a stack
The guy who is a captain, made a few mistakes, and just failed the pick. Happens, what can I say.
Plus witch who I didn't knew sucked balls, not MM fail, just my friends fail.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175534860 < BUT DENDI DID DOUBLE MIDAS AND WON HOW DID I LOST. yea that one I agree, although just to be fair, a) Our team composition sucked b) Their chen and sniper were geniuily good. c) Sniper had free farm agaisnt mirana. Not as much that players werent the same skill, more that everyone plays whatever the fuck they want, and fail to consider enemy hero composition.
Hey, fagt, just friend me- p0tramp_kun
If you are actually a good player, you'll have better games with me=)
If not oh well
I like how while Relentless is giving good advice, detailed explanations, and doing this in good manner, he is getting ravaged by people who have no regard for sound arguments.
RIP Vaikiss
http://dotabuff.com/matches/176466209
Our trash mid is against some nerd 59% winrate puck.
Another trashgame.
step 1: stomp retard BH, game over in 3 minutes as he abandons
http://dotabuff.com/matches/176283526
He dies twice, (not sure why he bought a QB on BH in the first place), and blames his team??
step 2: have said retard, on your team next game
xoxo mm
@lie Yeah, that team was just far better than yours. More experience and just outplayed. Not sure how that matchup happened.
"http://dotabuff.com/matches/176466209
Our trash mid is against some nerd 59% winrate puck.
Another trashgame."
lmao, that tinker got so much presence in the game, with no soul ring on tinker
Tinker must be the one same skill lvl or near to thats of ur mid player
hahaha
stalianer is not a noob he plays for 3d!clan
^^^^ stop posting games from new account you retard
49% WR - retards
59% WR - nerds
...
51% WR - faggots ?
66% casual
oh smurf, pls..
i was 73% on my surf when i was 25 games
Winrate is not about skill, when you gonna learn this newbs?
i was telling that guy, "Casual", dont be such an ass, and btw, u always talk about winrates, so pls stfu, "A nerd with 59% winrate", "a faggot with 49% in my team"
WTF?!?!
^ Cuz winrate means nothing unless you are not lower than 50%. I've already said this.
And 59% winrate can be called a nerd, is he not a one?
then it means something, u can't deny it
^ Then it means you just dont understand it, I cant deny this.
I think that win-rates aren't significant except for putting you in the higher tier games (where people who want to play proper games are in --- supposedly anyway), since it doesn't accurately show your skill levels.
Your win rates can be pulled down by:
1. Teammates of lower skill levels who should not be in a higher tier game (matchmake problem)
2. Teammates who have been matched to the right difficulty, but was using an unfamiliar hero or just had a bad day
3. Selfish players (eg. no one wants to play support heroes, whole team refuse to buy courier, gem or wards)
4. Bad hero lineups against opponent (which can also be caused by selfish players who just want to play carries, if you would just say that you want to play a carry from the start then I would gladly pick a support, don't wait until people have already picked carries for the team and you do a last-pick carry)
5. Leavers
6. Trolls
7. Or that the other team is simply better than yours overall (fair enough)!
I think valve should introduce a player-rating system to vote people up/down into lower/higher tiers for being cooperative or not. A blacklist to prevent you from being mm-ed into the same team as the person next time would be fabulous as well.
Now, I don't condemn newbies (since I'm just an average player myself) coz everyone starts out new and should be given a chance to try. And of coz, not everyone is talented enough to play like pro-league players even if they've been playing for a long time.
I ask that everyone please be patient with newbies and try to guide them if you see they're doing something wrong instead of plainly raging at them and making everything worse (demoralizing them possibly worsening their play and making them hate you).
I feel the bigger problem is dealing with players who do not want to listen or cooperate with other players.
Eg. http://dotabuff.com/matches/175338433
The guy requested for solo mid, and we said okay. He picked a kotl and we were quite skeptical about it at first but respected his decision (we're friendly players).
It was a POTM, kotl, panda, tiny, cw lineup against NS, bh, naix, alchemist, NA.
Then this kotl just refused to play the game with us, refused to replenish the mana of tiny (who was asking for mana and pinging the NA to indicate he wants mana to engage the NA) and only replenished his 3/4 full mana ignoring the tiny and went back to continue farming nc.
For the first 25 minutes, he didn't buy any boots and ONLY stuck around at the mid tower to farm creeps and NC to upgrade his dagon (what's the use of a kotl farming for 25 mins and doing nothing to push towers or help in engagements?) and when I questioned him about it he said he didn't pick mid to be a support. So obviously after giving him mid he did no contributions after farming for the whole game (late game 1k hp) and eventually any one of their heroes on the other team could eat him for breakfast. He believes he would win us the game by farming mid/nc and forget about helping to push towers. He owns opponent heroes naix alchemist ns with nothing but his almighty dagon.
............................
Then again I searched the tier of that match and found it to be a normal tier, maybe that explains ...
Sigh, but these kind of things don't just happen in normal tier games. I'll just have to do a little digging through records to find people like that I've met in high or very high tier games.
The main issue is not about the skill level, it's about dealing with idiots who refuse to play the game properly or listening to people's advice/cooperating. DOTA is a team game afterall.
@TS I think my rant probably went off-topic somewhere but just saying chill lol, we can't expect mm to be perfect since people could be in the wrong game tiers quite often (lol). Rather I find it more depressing when you get complete retards on your team (not talking about their skill level but just the players themselves). Being noob is one thing, people tell you heroes missing and you still wander off alone into unwarded areas and feed is just being downright stupid.
I wonder if he picked KOTL after of before they picked Nyx,Naix,Bala (yes I'm too lazy to watch replay)
I challenge people to find more unfair than these games;
http://dotabuff.com/matches/174633730
I pick storm, dominate mid, gank well and lo and behold my entire team feed and eventually after trying to 5v1 the other team multiple times I just can't control 5 fed enemies.
Lightning can't strike twice right?
http://dotabuff.com/matches/177557132
Fuck.
What really frustrates me is the fact that none of the other team were particularly good, but my team were all exceptionally woeful. I mean, I'm stomping completely and hitting scores like 25-5/28-2 and the rest of my team still manage to end up scoring some woeful shit scores like 2-18 (all of them!)
^ wait til u hit games that end with score like 2,3/40 and so on
Kudos, but it's impossible for an entire team to get that bad.
I would have more sympathy if only one of my team fed that bad and we were let down by one idiot, but no... I'm let down by 4. Twice. (in fact it's happened far more but these examples are amazing)
Also...
most of the kills my team manage to scrape are only because I didn't get the last hit.
OP is a fucking retard who cant communicate with a proper way,
his Opinion:
If u got 59% winrate, u r a nerd,
If u got 51% winrate, u r normal,
If u got 49% winrate, u r a fucking retard and must uninstall dota,
This shows that Winrate got a meaning, and u fucking retard, trying to let it not have a meaning, but still letting it have a meaning, get ur shit together u fucking retarded kid
^ U mad newb?
Right, because anyone with decent stats is a smurf? k, I guess you never heard of dota1, heck I could have come from any other MOBA and been better than all the trash in the normal tier bracket
so anyway, play a bit of spot the difference, between these 2 games:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/173459570
Dazzle supporting me, buys courier, wards, stacks + pulls, harasses
http://dotabuff.com/matches/169913665
(note that I chose Weaver to be offlane, but for some reason PL went there too, so we had me + PL top and Jakiro + KOTL bot..I told him I could solo offlane while they trilaned, but nope he didn't want to move, so I swapped lanes with KOTL)
Jakiro spams the chat saying that he is the carry for some reason, no wards, at all, contests lasts hit, doesn't pull until like 10 minutes in, despite me asking him to do it from the first minute. He then spams about how he is going to "rush" ethereal blade, and in doing so feeds the enemy by being in shit positions over and over. PL is building vlads for some reason, I tell him its no good, and Jakiro being the faggot that he is suggests he buys mekk. Note that KOTL already had this item, and there was no way anyone could take this Jakiro seriously, and PL still bought mek.
stats? stats from 29 matches are irrelevant
Most of my games at the moment are in the High Bracket (solo queue), and 2 have been in the Very High Bracket, I'm not expecting xiao8 to be by my side, but at least basic competence and a decent understanding of what is going on in the game.
looks like first match u were playing with someone, in stack, with more matches
Second, solo MM,
if not, yes, shitty MM :(
I was solo queue for both those matches
The only 2 matches in which I queued with anyone were these 2 games, both were 5 stack vs 5 stack:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/175817968
http://dotabuff.com/matches/176307460
lol, i am the one who is mad, whining about MM, stfu and play, or talk shit and dont play, or try to solve the problem in a reasonable way, posting in the right forums, if they dont answer, then no one cares
^ Gtfo kiddo, go learn grammatics somewhere else.
So fucking tired of trashgames.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/178232788
Bh sucks, top sucks. I didnt even play for the last 5 mins and still none outfarmed me. Epic trashcans.