General Discussion

General DiscussionLane pulling

Lane pulling in General Discussion
WHY IS THIS SHIT SO RIGGED

    I had an argument with a guy in game about pulling, he kept insisting that I had to pull every single wave even if that meant dragging the creeps under the tower and making him tank all the dmg, to deny as much xp as possible to the offlane. I said I'd pull only when the lane was pushed too far and wanted to keep the creep equilibrium, that he could aggro the creeps to farm and trade with the offlaner while I was harassing them. Who's right and who's wrong in this and why?

    Shoukyaku

      you dont need to pull when lane is under tower cuz its very easy for the enemy heroes to intercept it anyway in my experience

      Kowareta

        here's the thing, it doesnt matter who is right. only thing that matters is if u dont pull every single wave, u wont realize which one was good and which one was bad and why. u just sitting in lane and leaching xp for no reason while theory crafting about it.

        its actually not bad to farm under tower if enemy cant dive you. most meta heroes have enough damage to farm under tower and they are tanky aswell. thats a greedy pull but u can salve your carry afterwards.

        its important for you to get every small camp xp, if you dont like the creeps to come under tower, just farm the small camp as fast as possible. thats an option

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        poggies

          dont pull just go run back to base

          LegendaryHD

            Just don't get cs, 4head.

            Blood Prince.

              Well towers give hp regen and armor so they can't really dive your carry.

              ET

                Kowa gives real advice and responses when it’s not a stupid thread, friendly reminder.

                VROOMndie

                  Its mostly about the lane matchup like if you have a jug jakiro lane you should try to keep lane puhed and pull from large cam jugg and jakiro duo can clear even a big stacked cam if enemy cant contest it hoever if enemy is strong to contest pull small camp and connect pull the large one and deny as much exp as possible this has to be done right from the start because early game level matter a lot.in this case if your carry was comfortable under tower pull every camp which is in my opinion correct play the aura from.tower also helps plus since tower damage was reduced its easier to hit under tower

                  PMX

                    @SLQ : If you understand lane mechanics and matchup scenarios , you will realize yourself who is right when your carry says something like that. IMO the offlaner and their pos 4 are not dumb to not contest your pulls if they are missing every wave. When they do contest you , you guys can lose complete lane equilibrium.

                    Ember spirit only

                      Basically the correct play is to just sit in lane and leech his xp and be ultra useless until he begs you to pull. HE NEEDS TO SEE THAT YR DOING JACKSHIT EVEN THO YOU KNOW YOU CAN'T DO SHIT ANYMORE

                      Same scenario timber Lvl 5 I go pull carry cries that I'm not helping him.

                      Another game I just sit in lane hitting the timber doing 0 damage while laughing. Then my carry asks me to go pull Rofl.

                      These animals are just trash at the game

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                      Chunchunmaru

                        Wow, kowareta didn't undermine anyone in his reply, how rare. And he's right

                        Just pull at every minutes and buy salve(s) for your carry if he's low. It put so much xp advantages for your carries and yourself if enemies didn't contest you. And if they contest you, your carry have free farm (and denies!)

                        Dreadnought325

                          I help lane to harass, my core says he wants solo and wants me to go pull. After I go pull, my core gets ganked, and he tells me that I am not helping him.

                          I wont pull cos I dont trust my core to survive ganks. If my core is not able to last hit, I can just help him to last hit and deny its that simple. You only go pull if the opponent core is soloing the lane or if your creeps are pushed too much. The amount of xp and gold you get from the small camp is really small compared to the amount of gold and xp you can get from the lane. If you as a support is able to continue harassing the opponent, you will cause your opponent to spend more on regen items which i feel is more beneficial.

                          AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                            ^ and that's how you lose games.

                            If your core asks you to pull, you go and pull, but while pulling, you don't center the camera on yourself, but keep it on your core.(just move camera to your hero for lh on the nc and denies)
                            once the lane creeps meet the nc, you position yourself so that, if shit goes south in lane, you can be in lane too.

                            If your teammate asks something and you do opposite of that, cause "I feel I know this game better", you are just gonna end up losing winnable game.
                            Instead of fighting back over ideologies, accommodate your teammate's gameplay(no matter how stupid). Cause
                            case-1: Enemy has equally shit players and you win the game.
                            case-2: Enemy has good players, in that case it doesn't matter.

                            You give opinion/advices, but try enforcing them and shit goes south pretty easy.
                            Arguing in game over "who's right" in low skill brackets is just not gonna make you lose winnable games.

                            Dreadnought325

                              ^ Following other people's advice blindy is what causes you to lose games.

                              There are very high risks involve in pulling the small camp and most supports are unaware of that. In the event your core dies in the lane, you lose your core, the lane and only gain some small rewards in the small camp. If the opponent support detects your pulling and comes after you, there is a chance that the opponent support may snatch the gold away from you. Thus I am more conservative and prioritize the life of my core over some small gains in the jungle. I prefer helping my core get some denies in the lane cos at the bracket I am in, their cores are not so good at last hitting, so my denies will come in handy.

                              AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                ^^ and you just missed the point.

                                Rather than gameplay, it's mostly about psychology. But go ahead, keep arguing with your teammates every game, cause they don't play according to you. That's a winning strategy.

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                                Shoukyaku

                                  i mean if u can pull while wave under the tower its fine it just usually gets contested

                                  WHY IS THIS SHIT SO RIGGED

                                    ^^What kind of argument even is that? So if teammates go for one of those 3v5 suicide missions, smoke into aegis without vision or god knows what other dumb stuff, one is supposed to do as they say just to avoid fighting and keep the kids happy? wtf lol.
                                    If I think it doesn't make sense I won't do it, if it does I will adapt and do it.
                                    I see where the guy was coming from but I wasn't sure about it. We were not even losing the lane, struggling or anything, it was Jugg-Jakiro vs Omni-Shaman.
                                    But he kept pinging like crazy and talking on the mic in an arrogant way so I tilted and noped the fuck out of the lane after a bit.
                                    I'd consider it if it was an unwinnable lane 'cause of the draft, or one in which I couldn't zone out/kill the offlaner and would end up running around in circles, but this one...
                                    Also you get contested like crazy and are forced to leave the carry alone for the seconds you're pulling, he wanted me to constantly pull both camps, not sure how safe it is to leave the carry alone against double stuns, stuns and slows and whatnot.
                                    We'll see, maybe I'll try it in a couple normal games first.
                                    Ah true btw, running back to base > pulling.

                                    AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                      ^^ You are talking about 3k mmr games my man. Lane contests, Lane harass, creep equilibrium all those concepts don't matter at all. In the end it's going to be a 40+mins fuck fest with all players randomly dying at random parts of map, and one team wins a gank by some random chance and pushes to win.

                                      it's not about keeping kids happy. It's about looking at the bigger picture.

                                      If you team has shit players, there's a good chance enemy team has shit players too.
                                      If enemy team has good players, you are gonna lose regardless of anything you do.

                                      But if you go on case-1, you have a better chance if you hold you team together, adapt to them.

                                      If you want to win games, throw that "why should I listen to this idiot" or "He pinged me so I'm done with him" mentality away.
                                      You want to win the game. Swallow your pride and co-operate with those trashcans and report those animals after game.
                                      And that's the secret to keeping PMA.

                                      I chased my no bkb + always out of position void who pinged me whole early game and is asking everyone to report me, across the map to make sure I can save him if he gets ganked, cause as much as I hate that guy, he was our winning condition.
                                      I don't think, listening to a core, that says "pull every wave" is a hard job.

                                      Cherry on top -> Every single chrono(except for the last 2 game winning ones), resulted in him getting lifted by rubick while trapping at least one other teammate in it.

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                                      Kabir singh's bo0ster

                                        Realistically what matters is that u pick Spectre, mute your entire team, farm all game wherever u want cuz it doesnt matter where u are, and then u win a game most of the time.

                                        Ayaneru   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

                                          I have Game Leap before and this is what my coach told me:

                                          1. Only pull if the creeps is too close on their tower.
                                          2. Stack the small camp first, then pull. It will deny all the creeps. This is not always the case but consider this strat.
                                          3. Use your clarity when you are pulling.
                                          4. Alert your carry that you are creep pulling. That way, he will not dive for last hits.
                                          5. Deny your low hp creeps.
                                          6. Enemy is contesting you during your pull creeps? Eat a tree and manfight him!
                                          7. Are you winning the lane? Start pulling including the big camp!
                                          8. Are you losing the lane? Stop pulling and defend your tower as long as you can.

                                          WHY IS THIS SHIT SO RIGGED

                                            ^This is what I go by, I think it's the most basic and common strategy to follow unless there's a particularly hopeless or even easy scenario in lane.

                                            @AD.GokU™ the fact that 3k level is bad doesn't mean one shouldn't play the game better, I mean that's the whole point of climbing.
                                            And besides climbing, how can you enjoy the game if you make avoidable mistakes that result in loss of efficiency. Like, how fun can it be being a constantly out of position, feeding Rubick with no items but wand and brown boots at min 25 'cause you don't know how and when to gank, or farm an empty lane for a minute.
                                            I think everything matters at every level, at low levels you just get punished much less because of how inefficient the enemies are themselves. It's less punishing, true, but I don't see why not try to play better. People don't climb out of 2-3k out of luck, they simply beat the level by being better (have to make an exception for low bhs hell and stuff).

                                            It's not about pride, I'm actually always happy to learn new things and correct mistakes, just not by being madly pinged or schooled on the mic in that way. He left the lane to "show me how to do it" while losing farm and having his own pull contested. "Stick to playing pos 3, 5 is not for you. My pos 5 was amazing when we played, watch me, I know better etc." and I snapped and deleted him after the game. Kind of regretting it though, he was just tilted from previous solo games but not a bad person or player. I kind of see what you mean btw, in the end it doesn't matter how triggering people can be, especially if you play pos 5 you need your cores to win and cutting them out is game losing for yourself.

                                            nice impact

                                              it's fine to pull anytime you can get the pull unless your carry can't cs.

                                              If your carry is going to die or take a lot of dmg if you pull, it's not worth.

                                              Just buy a salve for your carry like the BSJ guides tell ya

                                              AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                                And that's the point my man,
                                                You yourself should try to play better, expecting good plays from players at 3k is a mental trap.

                                                If you are good enough, you can even cover the inefficient plays your teammates make by improving your own position/itemization/etc.
                                                If you play with the mindset of improving, then every burden teammate is a opportunity to think of new way to play the game.
                                                Instead of "I can't win with this shit team", think like "How can I win with this shit team" / "What can I do that will improve our chances of winning".
                                                I also noticed this quite recently, and honestly once you start focusing on improving your own game, the tilt from losses / shit teammates is reduced by a lot.

                                                I follow this mentality when playing p5:
                                                1) I trust all my cores, no matter how bad they play.
                                                2) I will make sure my core survives, even if I have to die 20 times to save them and then get flamed by them for dying.
                                                3) As long as we win the game, nothing else matters.
                                                4) I commend the sensible players get the commends back from them(sometimes even the dog commends you just cause you win), I flame that dog in post game chat and report them. -> Easy bhs
                                                5) I reset and move on to the next game.

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                                                flourishing new leaf

                                                  If someone has to pull, it should be the core. The support can easily stay with those few creeps left and take the risk of being alone. Obviously also getting that critical extra XP and Gold which will be wasted and insignificant on the core.

                                                  So if some idiot core tells you to pull, DON'T DO IT. If you agree someone should, MAKE HIM DO IT.

                                                  Shoukyaku

                                                    ? u realize both heroes can pull, u are not helping anyone by flipping the "only one hero should pull" idea 180 degrees

                                                    flourishing new leaf

                                                      That's how it should be. You're free to do if you want yourself instead however.

                                                      My point is, the support isn't gonna complain like a little bitch about it if the core doesn't do it.

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                                                      AD.GokU™ | Repeat.gg

                                                        ^And here's a fine example of player who shouldn't be playing team based games. xD

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                                                        99

                                                          If you honestly weren't sure which was the best strategy then it's probably best to just follow what your Safe Lane carry requests. Unless you are absolutely sure he is asking you to do something detrimental you will most likely have a more successful lane by cooperating and follow the strategy he is familiar with.

                                                          Worst case scenario it doesn't work and your carry dies once but you can still adjust and move forward. If you demand he follows your strategy you'll find your Safe Lane carry in the jungle after 1 death.

                                                          flourishing new leaf

                                                            No, no one should impose their ways on others. The worst thing you can do is listen to someone not worthy or less skilled than you. Ask him to do it himself if it's so critical or important "FOR THE TEAM"