General DiscussionPos 5 support Midas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2DTsS7cmMw

You are supposed to run the early game. Doing 12 min close nothing is just bullshit. Even WK jungle is a better option.

Nah thats too greedy, I would only consider it if were playing for late game or the tempo of the game is slow. A faster blink would be better. Then again it really depends on the situation or hero. A hero like phoenix could use it it because the hero needs levels fast.

Chances are, very rarely you'll get to have Midas at a good timing. Trust me I've played warlock my whole life even back when Midas wasn't nerfed it was still a bad choice. The only reason you should get Midas is when you get a huge lead in the early game & so much so that you'll no longer a pos 5 with that kind of lead, you'd better off being a pos 4 or 3.

It's also better to get team fight items, Midas cost as much a glimmer cape which is quite the escape/initiative item meaning you survive longer get more xp/gold compared to Midas. Not to mention glimmer also denies potential gold if enemies decide to buy detections.

if u are so baboon and cant make plays for ur team without items with pos 5, just pick the ones who have gpm talent.

I think there only hero that can get away with a late Midas is ogre as pos 5. Ogre is anyways good even without gold but Midas just makes pos 5 ogre like pos 3 even when being a ward bitch.

then you are pos 4

I only did that once or twice and never again. Unless its Ogre or you somehow dominate 15 min game with 9/1/1, its not worth it
1. Your pos 4 at risk of getting no item instead while they may need to get crucial item faster (maybe early blink dagger or spirit vessel)
2. Notice how midas in really needs at least 15 times use to be worth it and considering very effective uses, it needs 22 minute to be actually worth it. 90 gpm talent is the "poor man choice" albeit the xp bonus and the attack speed (which isn't that worth it unless it's Dazzle or Winter Wyvern, but still highly situational)
3. Early midas play (tango and gloves) not only put your 4th post on bad position, but also your other lane since in this situation, you're more likely to turtle on lane getting "unreachable" last hit than ganking together with your 4th post
My tier for 5th postion Midas
Get it ASAP > Ogre Magi
Maybe do it, maybe don't even consider > Crystal Maiden, Dazzle, Winter Wyvern, Silencer
Watch your match in 1 hour > Phoenix, Undying, Lion, Ancient Apparation, Warlock
"♡♡♡♡ you" i queue hard core items support > anyone else

The question is much more nuanced than a simple yes or no answer. That's part of the beauty of dota, supports can be cores and vice versa. Midas is indeed generally too greedy for the 5 role, but this is not always the case.

Let's do a quick analysis of Midas:

Pros:
- Generates extra gold and xp resources that weren't on the map before, meaning that stacking (and I suppose kills) isn't the only way to generate extra resources that weren't on the map. (Consider the fact that tower gold in the game is basically hard capped by the number of buildings.)
- Allows you to maintain your item progression if you are able to use it efficiently, and allows you to keep up with warding and other duties even in the worst games.
- Gives reliable gold so it's easier to always have buyback and means you'll lose less money from deaths if you basically only keep reliable gold.
- Having more midases than the opposing team means that you're passively gaining xp and gold advantage over your opponents in a quiet game.
- Allows you to farm hard to kill creeps instantly, which allows you to be efficient on the map and not having to waste mana on that creep (Like with CM frostbite, if she uses that to farm she's probably not gonna be fight ready without some clarities.)

Cons:
- It's a very slow tempo item, and takes time to pay for itself. Technically it's a bit wrong to say that it's x times the number of uses, because a. You can sell it for half the original price and b. It gives xp too and really if you're not buying Midas on an xp reliant hero, you're probably doing it wrong.
- Going for too many midases is an invitation for your opponents to play aggressive and push you off the map.
- Midas requires control of your jungle to be efficient with it, both in terms of xp gained as well as not denying your cores lane farm as a support.
- It's basically a stat free item, only giving attack speed, which is generally less useful on supps than cores. Its attack speed is basically two gloves of haste, or just over 2/3rds of a hyperstone, so I guess I'd value the stats at around 1350 gold. But even then, the stats are only relevant if you are on a hero that actually benefits from it.
- It has a very expensive recipe, which Midas rushing very inefficient if you die regularly whilst trying to get there.
- There's an opportunity cost because that money could have gone into something useful like a Blink Dagger or a Glimmer Cape or just some hard stats for an advantage now rather than an advantage later.

Conclusion:

- Midases are particularly useful on heroes that are more XP reliant than most
- Midases are fundamentally about converting early game gold and potential into later game gold and potential.
- This means Midases are much better to buy when you expect a game to go a long time, as well as games with less action involved
- And also means Midases are much worse to buy when you expect a game to end early.

This means that Midases basically fulfil three different purposes:

- Enhancing lategame potential and winning passively through more Midases in a quiet game e.g. enhancing your lategame vs a Spectre draft if the game is clearly not going to be won within 20 minutes.
- Hitting important timings and/or levels for key talents e.g. Warlock late talents are insane
- Securing higher tier items for a phase of the game that would not necessarily be possible through normal farming by increasing farm efficiency. E.g. Hex Shivas Abyssal Blade

So for me, the biggest factors that I would consider when buying Midas on support are the following questions:

1. Who has lategame? How easy is it for either side to end the game early?
2. What is the opportunity cost for rushing midas? (e.g. wards not bought, smokes not bought, dying easily, not being able to buy arcane boots for team early)
3. How good is my hero over the course of a game with Midas versus without it? Does my hero have any specific item dependence to function, or are my abilities so strong that I can basically go without items and use positioning to do my job?
4. Are there any broken talents, timings or item combinations that you can get that will break the game? (e.g. Refresher Aghs, Support hex)

Some examples:

1. Phoenix:

A. Her abilities are basically all amazing even without much farm. Super level dependent support, needs at least level 12 for egg to be a good ult. Has good talents that are worth rushing for.
B. Can rely wholly on positioning to do her job for the vast majority of a game, unless she's countered by silences.
C. Has high synergy with higher tier items (e.g. Shiva's, Halberd, Aghs and Refresher), as well as lower tier items (e.g. Veil of Discord, Urn into Spirit Vessel). Farms pretty quickly without Midas but Midas will help reach higher tier items.
D. Is good in teamfights, Rosh Pit and high ground, all of which lend to making Phoenix a hard hero to end game against.

Conclusion: A good Midas carrier, but not an everygame Midas hero. Sometimes needs defensive items like Eul's in order to have a game.

2. Warlock

A. Warlock has fantastic abiltiies that only scale on his levels basically. Has incredible talents that are worth rushing for as well as a force to be reckoned with lategame. One of the best lategame supports in the game if he has the appropriate farm and levels.
B. Has no escape, so is easily killed if found and turned on. However, he's the kind of hero that lots of his spells are fire and forget, and he can focus wholly on having good positioning and hiding to do his job. Certain games will require him to build a defensive item like a Force Staff or a Glimmer Cape in order to do his job well.
C. Similarly to Phoenix, is good at high ground, rosh pit. Hard to end game against but take into consideration your team's overall ability at teamfighting and high ground defence as he still needs good fighters around him.
D. Farms very slowly without Midas, being unable to clear jungle efficiently. Needs lane farm without Midas.

Conclusion:
An excellent Midas carrier, but generally too greedy of a Midas in a lot of games. A Midas is often a result of stomping the early game or buying one in a quiet game that will not end early.

3. CM

A. Very level dependent support who farms very slowly. Frostbite looks like a natural spell to farm jungle but is mana intensive and actually still farms slowly compared to say a Lina support. She is level dependent because she wants high levels of aura but it's basically a passive that doesn't contribute to her fighting strength at all. (e.g. I quite like 2-1-3-1 as a build on her for upfront power, but she still needs levels to round out her skills).
B. Has very strong spells that can be used with good positioning only, and contributes to the entire team simply by being alive. Very few early game items fundamentally change this hero. Some tankiness is warranted, but it will never fundamentally change the hero's functionality. Basically needs at least Boots and Wind Lace to do her job effectively, but nothing else.
C. Very weak against defensive items like Manta and BKB, needs her own items like Hex and BKB to maintain relevance into the lategame.
D. Has no escape, is pitifully slow and little survivability. Often needs a defensive item or at least lots of mobility to keep herself safe against aggressive heroes like Riki or Slark.

Conclusion:

A very good Midas carrier by virtue of the fact that all of her spells are strong, and she has a cast range talent so she can basically always play in trees or fog. Has no particular item reliance, and benefits from the difference between an underfarmed underlevelled CM versus one who has decent farm rate and can accelerate to the lvl 15 GPM talent long before other supports can, easily transitioning her into a fourth core. Midas is a good pickup when the early game weakness isn't particularly punishing, and lategame investment is a safe way to win.

TL;DR:

1. Buy Midas in games where you expect them to go long, as a way to invest earlygame potential into the later game.
2. Heroes that can function through good positioning (and having good positioning) are the best for picking up Midases.
3. If you think either side has the potential to end the game early, it's probably best not to go for Midas.
4. If you pos 5, and you're near a Midas and you think it's a good game for one, you could always ask to become the 4 and ask them to transition into 5.
5. Be flexible with your Midas plans. If you die a couple times on the way to Midas as support, ask yourself if this is still a Midas game.
6. Midas helps ensure that your team gets 4 cores which is the best situation realistically in Dota.
7. Don't buy Midas if you are sacrificing a very important item like Blink on Earthshaker (duh).

Last note: Imagine a game where you have a spectre and they have a naga siren. Neither side is gonna end early with these heroes in all likeliness. You see the enemy Warlock has a gloves of haste. Even if you are pos 5, this is the kind of situation where virtually any support can pick up a Midas and get away with it. I would even strongly consider picking up Midas on support windrunner because she actually uses farm well and has great talents to aim for, and she farms so slowly if not given lane farm.

(Man that was so much longer of a post than I originally intended xD)

awful unless you have a tinker or techies or they do

Lol midas is so bad. Youre just delaying your item timings. The meta is dictated by how fast you can overwhelm the enemy on having high tempo. Its a race of who gets to the mid game faster. Sure it helps you gets levels faster but its detrimental compared on having an early game defensive/mobility item like a force, glimmer, euls, drums or blink and just being active early. Its bad on 5s in general unless you have heroes that need to go late and you have heroes who can defend towers to delay games. Outside of ogre magi(in regards of 5), it isnt really recommended.

Its even bad on cores(except arc, sniper and invo) because the pay off is not worth it.

Its even bad on cores(except arc, sniper and invo) because the pay off is not worth it.

Bloodseeker, CK, Enigma, Lifestealer, Lone Druid, Nature's Prophet, OD, Ogre Magi, Phoenix, Silencer, Sven, Wraith King are cores that range anywhere from situational to good with Midas. I mean I've even seen it on Spectre. So I think you may have missed a few, not to mention I didn't mention a few borderline case heroes.

The reality is more nuanced than you make it out to be. A lot of carries aren't expected to contribute much to fights, so their contribution is just showing up at the end of a fight and mopping up, which doesn't necessarily require them to be fully combat ready. Yes Midas is going to be less popular now that it got a further nerf, but it's not the kind of nerf that would downgrade Midas from an auto pick up to a "bad" pickup, just downgrade it to a situational pickup. As it should be.

^ commend

great guide