General Discussion

General DiscussionNeed some advice to improve

Need some advice to improve in General Discussion
Shirley Fenette

    What to do when ur team is far behind and u opt to split push but they have catch potential on u and they wouldn't let u do it?

    Shirley Fenette

      How would a blue star cope with this situation in lower bracket?

      mynhauzen

        Just do it bro. Last night I've promised to win the game for 4 commends vs 4 reports. People wanted to report me but we've won. Be creative.

        SASA POPOVIC

          When you play from behind you need to do a pick off, their top3 networth players are obvious targets, if enemy realize this too they will gather as 5 to counter this, uf they push together then you split push, you need to apply pressure to realief pressure from your own lane, vision here is crucial, because you risk being very stupid if you dont see the enemy team and they pick you off instead forcing your buyback and result in losing your rax.

          Unfortunately this scenario cant apply in sub 4k bracket, because of disorganisation, so team who snowballs first will win the game unless they throw.

          Javad

            the situation gives so little info of the whole game. there could be a million ways this scenario happens and each could have a solution for themselves. in most games the solve to the problems is found in first 10 mins tho

            Bu yorum düzenlendi
            Shirley Fenette

              I am up against a bara,clinkz and tinker who are owning my team and say I am an SF with SB as only escape mechanism. I couldnt snowball early game because of how slippery those heroes are and we had a no disable lineup to help me get kills when I rotated. I start split pushing but the moment they have vision on me I am dead. I put wards on their shrine to see when they were going to TP when I was pushing tier 2 of their safelane to no avail. Tinker comes hexes and solo kills me. Hope that helps Sia XD

              @Harold u are right. This is what happens to me. The team who snowballs wins the game. And only way other team has a chance if they some how start feeding gold.

              Shirley Fenette

                I was a guardian then I made a smurf and it came out to be archon. But it doesnt matter, I am missing on something and I cant win games on either account xD. The only difference is I when I win in guardian bracket its always me who carries the game. In archon I am likely to find someone who carries the game along wid me in a winning scenario.

                Shirley Fenette

                  @sia
                  I always win the lane if I am playing mid and I have level and farm advantage over the other mid. But I mostly fail to snowball but the other person somehow does. I know I am trash but I would really appreciate some help xD.

                  SASA POPOVIC

                    Dota is complex game with many factors that affect your game and they shift from match to match. Now tell me how can a few paragraphs that someone writes here make you a better player when it takes 1000 of games of trial and error practice.

                    Honestly nobody will coach you for free, so you can either hire a coach or coach yourself by watching replays of better players.

                    lone dog

                      I would focus on playing for fun.

                      Since playing from behind is not fun I go afk and wait for the next for fun game :)

                      Dragy10

                        for fun player
                        holy shit that 0-19 streak is as red as communism

                        how many reports did you get?

                        Javad

                          well gimmi the replay id i'll see if i can help

                          Shirley Fenette

                            4008557942 its a similar scenario where they wont let me push and I failed to exploit my advantage.

                            Shirley Fenette

                              I went for bad pick ups because I need to work on my bad map awareness but I couldn't find a way to split push.

                              Shirley Fenette

                                ty for ur help

                                Shirley Fenette

                                  I am the SF btw xD

                                  Javad

                                    Will watch le replay later and see what happened

                                    Ritsu x boni = 0 IQ

                                      Some games are not winnable anymore, at that point you should just give up unless you are playing a hero like luna or clinkz who can destroy the enemy base within 10 secs then rat to victory

                                      fish

                                        Did you first pick or what? No way u pick sf into sb or tinker

                                        Shirley Fenette

                                          Thats just a scenario I am talking about xD. I wouldnt have picked SF vs these heroes but this has happened to me at some point.

                                          Shirley Fenette

                                            @Hotel ? is see you have good winrate as SF. How do you do pick offs as SF ? Teach me senpai xD

                                            Bu yorum düzenlendi
                                            Shirley Fenette

                                              @sia ty

                                              fish

                                                Well last time i played that hero is more than 2 months ago but just imagine like playing clinkz.
                                                After you get sb, go to lane you want to gank (only gank if your allies hero is more or equal than enemy heroes in your target lane), ping your allies to go first and then just raze and kill them (u dont want to go first because as sf you dont want to die and lose your souls).

                                                After laning stage ends :
                                                A. If enemy sticks as 4 or 5 to push tower
                                                If your team wants to def, then wait them to go first and :
                                                1. If you think enemy is stupid and never buy sentries then go sb and go into their backline to ult them
                                                2. If enemy is smart then wait enemy to use most skills and stuns then just hit and razes and ult if u need to

                                                B. If enemy is separated
                                                Go find easy to kill enemy and ask ur teamates to go that lane, so ur kill isnt pointless (remember objectives> kill and kill makes objectives easier)

                                                Anyone can correct me as i dont play this hero so often lately...

                                                Bu yorum düzenlendi
                                                Shirley Fenette

                                                  With all above points in my mind I think the thing I am doing wrong is initiating on my own and my positioning often is not very good.I'll work on that.

                                                  Javad

                                                    tldr: u did 2 main things very wrong. 1 was trying to kill when u had to farm and vise versa, and 2 was playing on the wrong side of the map most of the game.

                                                    the problem of the game wasn't high ground siege at all. and it certainly wasn't "all ur teammates fault"

                                                    here u can see u have 95 last hits at 17 mins. trying to kill enemy with shadow blade is a reasonable thing to do but doing it with info is what counts. u invised a lot just cuz u saw enemies being in a lane. this is a sure way to kill urself a lot of the times cuz u'r relying on luck that the conditions are in a way that u get the kill and not get punished for not counting in the missing enemies and map control.

                                                    so farm and shove lanes and rotate to jungle UNTIL U HAVE THE CONDITIONS TO KILL. the way u did it to death prophet, but consciously after counting the effect of the missing enemies and what they can do to u, not just invis ulting cuz u see an enemy.

                                                    example of u playing the wrong side of the map. aside from the low number of ur cs, if u look at the map, enemy still has their safelane tower and u continually went back to the top side to kill or take towers. think of it like this: what does taking this tower do for me? like what does this tier 1 top or EVEN T2 do? they literally give u no map control, cuz non of em make the enemy shrine area safe for u to farm, all they do is give gold.
                                                    but what does enemy safelane tower do for u? it opens up the 2 camps next to it, a huge area of the map is now really risky for enemy to be in, and easier for u to keep in control, and also u get the gold like all the towers. BUT THE EMPHASIS IS MAP CONTROL. u neglected map control most of the game and were playing a reactionary game of shoving back the lanes that enemy kept shoving to ur side.

                                                    here, i wanna show u what i mean by map control and proactive playstyle instead of reactive playstyle. so right now that nobody is pressuring u, and u see 3 of the enemies on the map, u need to buy urself a ward, put it on enemy's bot shrine, and keep staying in the enemy side of the map and shoving their lanes (not pushing. remember shoving means just killing the waves so that ur wave pushes into them and they have to react to it). you farming this ancient camp is basically the equivalent of having 1000$ and spending it on stuff, instead of investing it so u snowball the money amount.
                                                    so from now on remember to put a ward on the place that enemy has to pass to react to u, then shove lanes to make them react. THEN, JUNGLING IS ACCEPTABLE. when u actually have nothing else to do cuz u shoved the lane and u dont have any target to kill.

                                                    OH BTW, when u shove a lane, sometimes a killable enemy shows while his team is showing somewhere else, then u literally set up a kill for urself. and then u kill the guy. if enemy starts going missing or tps, u just walk back. if they are busy doing smth u take their tower. MORE MAP CONTROL.

                                                    this is the example of the difference between shoving and pushing. so u shoved the lane i said u should shove. but then, u kept going even though enemy were missing. and of course this is expected to happen. SHOVING =/= PUSHING so take note of that next times

                                                    look. a reactionary tp to something that u didnt even look on the map. this fight was already urs. this tp makes it so that 1, ur tp is gonna be on cd, and more importantly, 2, u give up the map advantage u made by shoving. what the right action was here, was to look at the fight, see how it's going. if they needed u u tp, if not, u walk back to ur offlane jungle, kill the camps, since u put a ward on enemy shrine u know their position, then u go back bot and keep shoving it and the taking the new spawned camps, and if anyone showed that u could kill without dying to others, u kill. if not u go back to ur offlane jungle and keep doing the same pattern basically

                                                    this is the result of ur tp there. u stay there cuz u'r forced to cuz ur teammates now occupied ur space. now what happens is a chain of events that could go wrong. for example: u'r farming ur jungle thinking it's MY jungle so it's safe, while it's the scariest place to farm on the map right now. so good enemies will see u with their wards and gank u and kill u. another thing is ur teammates are on that side of the map now. so u actually can't go to the safer spot of farming + where u can have a map control impact by shoving lanes. if u go there u have to steal farm + be all in one place which makes enemy rotate all to u which u dont want. u wanna split them not make them group up. this is pubs not pro dota most reliable way to win is splitting enemies and killing them.

                                                    so u see how that 1 tp made it so that the whole dynamic of where u were farming and where ur team was changes. now u'r forced to play in mid and ur jungle and top which is awful for map control. u want their bot t2 and THEN rosh area, both of which need bot shoved all the time. (t2 cuz whenever they dont def it u take tower and if they do u kill em or just farm. rosh cuz they have to react to the shoved lane making space for u to take rosh)

                                                    OH BTW*** crystalys was REALLY REALLY bad. u had so many options but u chose crystalys. this means ur thinking about itemization in general has a flaw that needs to get fixed. from now on think : WHAT IS MY JOB THIS GAME? WHAT DO I NEED TO DO MY JOB?
                                                    here, ur job is to shove a lane and kill enemies that are killable and show, and farm if not. also enemy has a clinkz and a dp. dp has silence while clinkz has a probable chance to get orchid. so i need a way to remove silence. is manta better or linkens? i think i wanna get bkb later anyway cuz of all their magical spells, so linken bkb will be overkill. im gonna get manta. so i get silver, then manta, then bkb, and then butterfly and maybe a satanic after that. TO DO MY JOB. with those next items, the reasoning is my job is to deal a shit load of damage in fights. and not get disabled and die while doing it. so u get bkb not to die, butter to get higher dps, and satanic for more fight sustainance.

                                                    look at the minimap carefully right now. what do u see? what i see is all enemy heroes in mid, and bot lane not being under enemy tower getting hit by you. if u were doing the shove and kill/farm thing over and over, right now when they decided to go mid, u were already bot, in a lane that was shoved to their side. so the moment they all showed mid, u took their bot t2, then went for high ground. and told ur team to stay only high ground. THEN WHEN ENEMY WANTED TO SIEGE HIGH GROUND, u tped back and were ready to fight WITH UR NEWLY BOUGHT BKB. and u owned them cuz of the insanely higher farm that u had. and then u took rosh, and shoved all the lanes in, took the control of all the map by taking all the t2s, and then shoving all 3 lanes by ur team. making them stay in their base and die if they get out. and u just farmed and shoved until next rosh. and with next rosh u straight up went up high ground and killed them all and ended the game. WHY? CUZ OF 2 THINGS: MAP CONTROL AND FARM ADVANTAGE

                                                    instead u'r here, with the items that are NOT made for fighting, DOING fighting, when u cant. and this of course is normal to happen.

                                                    same thing wrong side of the map, bot still not pushed. at this point u lost map control so u cant even go to enemy shrine to ward without HIGH AF risk of dying. and welp u made ur game 100 times harder.

                                                    same thing i said about ur item + playstyle + map positioning. u'r in a lane u shouldnt be, with the items that arent meant to fight, next to no objectives, meaning if u take the fight u literally arent getting anything off of it, maybe a not really important t2 (offlane), so of course u lose the fight and now enemy's gonna establish more map control, u get less networth, they get more, and this moment should be enough to lose u the game, but ofc enemy is at ur level of skills so the way u didnt exploit stuff, they also dont so it takes a bit longer to end the game.

                                                    only 10-25 mins late and that is the difference between a "stomp" and a "omg so close i should now rely on my team"

                                                    REMEMBER THIS: DO NOT TP TOO SOON TO ANYTHING AS A CORE. AS A SUPP, SURE, U MIGHT NEED TO BE THERE BEFORE ANYTHING OCCURS. BUT AS A CORE U NEED TO SHOW THE MOMENT U HAVE TO.

                                                    so here, look at the minimap. if u had the tp on u, and were next to enemy t3, dont u agree u hit towers hard af with sf? u coulda hit enemy t3 until they showed on the minimap, OR if they were missing for more than 5 secs or smth which potentially coulda meant they tped to u. if they stayed top, u attacked their t3 until the fight was occuring. if some of them tped to u, u tped back and kill the rest of them now that u split them. if they all went back, u just created urself and ur team space for the next 30-100 secs.

                                                    and at this point the game is pretty much unrecognizable to me vs what it couldve been so the rest of the game seems pretty much irrelevant cuz it's just a whole other game from what it shouldve been if u did those things i mentioned.

                                                    hope this helps

                                                    SASA POPOVIC

                                                      ^ Read this dude and save it on your desktop, people pay real money to get this kind of analysis i cant belive you got it for free, nice one Sia.

                                                      La Joya

                                                        start flame your teammates and believe that the game is no longer winnable, better preparing for the next games

                                                        Javad

                                                          thanks harold the uncomfortable

                                                          AnŦaiN

                                                            Dude sia what a man u are , u gave a detailed answer by viewing a replay that must have taken some time and thinking .

                                                            Javad

                                                              lol i do that on regular basis it just seems a lot cuz i got huge ass pics in a forum post. did it on youtube for a while until my pc didnt record anymore for some reason, then i just do it on discord

                                                              Shirley Fenette

                                                                Wow man I need time to absorb all of this. Ty for going through all that trouble.

                                                                Saucy Edwin

                                                                  You have to itemize for the splitpush. So linkens and mobility items.

                                                                  lone dog

                                                                    @Dragy

                                                                    I attempted to bring my behavior score up by intentionally getting into lp, and writing a autoclicker that accepted queues and ran my hero down mid while I was out/slept.
                                                                    My experiment was a failure as in like the 30 or so games, by behavior score remained the same as even though I could not get reported, I also could not get commended.

                                                                    Bu yorum düzenlendi
                                                                    Dragy10

                                                                      if that is true, that is actually remarkable
                                                                      that would mean that intentional feeding is punished less than afking(you get the abandon)

                                                                      lone dog

                                                                        Well there is no punishment. All of this feeding was done in low priority.

                                                                        The way I understand it is that the system ONLY checks for intentional feeding if there is a report to go along with it, but in low priority you do not have the ability to report or commend, hence the system does not bother to check and you literally can run down mid every single game and the system will not observe any different behavior than that of any other player.

                                                                        Afk abandons are actively checked as the system needs to know whether or not you are afk during the game, not after. So that means that unlike intentional feeding, you can still get abandons for going afk obviously as that can be detected.

                                                                        In otherwords as long as you are actively getting some semblence of experience in the game (the simplest and most effecient way to automize this is by feeding), the system will not recognize any of your behavior as anything out of the ordinary.

                                                                        Bear in mind this only applies to games in the low priority pool.

                                                                        Shirley Fenette

                                                                          I just did what you told me to do in a game. Well couldnt pull it off perfectly. But kept the pressure on by shoving even though we were losing but we won after having 7-8k gold disadvantage at one point xD.